ND legislature and Sioux name

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I have followed the UND name/logo controversy for years. The rank and file UND fans have to be physically ill over news reports in the past couple of days including interviews with the Big Sky Commissioner, Fullerton.

I would be extremely upset if the Summit League sniffed at UND. (There's always background chatter that if they left the Big Sky, they'd try for admission to the Summit League).

For them to think its that easy, I think they will be very rudely awaken when the other member instituions take a stand agains their gaining membership in the SL and MVFC.

One of the things that Fullerton and Mike McFeely talked about was that the NCAA is not an overeaching federal agency with assine rules, but rather the membership makes the rules. Its more comparable to a country club which each has its rules and if you dont respect the rules, your membership is soon does not exist.

[Theee Catrabbit]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Not sure if the Big Sky would kick them out or not. Fullerton would be giving much stronger dialog if they were leaning that way. Unless he's currently trying to get all voting members to vote them out and blindside UND(possible). All twelve members would need to unanimously vote UND out.

Would the Summit League take them? My guess is all bridges can be mended. I have no ill will towards the Sues. I think it would strengthen the SL and give them great stability. The big item would be getting them in the MVFC. I believe it would give the SL and MVFC the strongest anchor institutions in the country. 4 state universities in the Summit and would bring the MVFC up to 7. I don't think there are too many FCS conferences that can say that.

[MaddogJack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I think the Big Sky will kick them to the curb and I hope for right now, the Summit stays as far away as Tom Douple has said we would (until the nickname issue is taken care of - which for those of you keeping score, will be NEVER!)

They think that even if they get kicked out of the Big Sky, there are going to be conferences pandering for them. That is insane. They are insane. Again, I make the motion that they get annexed into Canada and are relegated to playing hockey 365/24/7. However, for their children's sake - they should start playing with helmets.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If UND has sufficient problems to cause the Big Sky to give them the boot, then those problems should be significant enough to convince the MVFC and the Summit League that it want nothing to do with UND. If those problems are solved so that UND became attractive to MVFC and the Summit League, then the Big Sky has no reason to give them the boot. Either way, no UND in the MVFC or the Summit League and that's fine with me. The on-going goofiness of the nickname issue has caused me to conclude that no contact with UND is the best course for now.

[KUlawJack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Not sure if the Big Sky would kick them out or not. Fullerton would be giving much stronger dialog if they were leaning that way. Unless he's currently trying to get all voting members to vote them out and blindside UND(possible). All twelve members would need to unanimously vote UND out.

Would the Summit League take them? My guess is all bridges can be mended. I have no ill will towards the Sues. I think it would strengthen the SL and give them great stability. The big item would be getting them in the MVFC. I believe it would give the SL and MVFC the strongest anchor institutions in the country. 4 state universities in the Summit and would bring the MVFC up to 7. I don't think there are too many FCS conferences that can say that.

I think Fullerton's dialogue yesterday was plenty strong regarding the Big Sky's position. I don't know how anyone could view it otherwise. They are not happy. Buyer's remorse if you will. Plus, it is not clear that a unanimous vote is needed at this point to kick UND out. UND is in probationary status. Fullerton said that to kick out a full member requires a unanimous vote. Nothing was mentioned about a probationary member.

Questions unanswered at this point. I personally think UND is getting what is coming to it for handling this issue so poorly.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I don't believe the Big Sky has wanted UND since USD backed out of the Big Sky offer to join. Big Sky can use the Fighting Sioux issue as sound reason to boot them and get to 12 members. UND will get rid of their baggage and then ask to join the Summit and MVC and believe they will be accepted.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If UND has sufficient problems to cause the Big Sky to give them the boot, then those problems should be significant enough to convince the MVFC and the Summit League that it want nothing to do with UND. If those problems are solved so that UND became attractive to MVFC and the Summit League, then the Big Sky has no reason to give them the boot. Either way, no UND in the MVFC or the Summit League and that's fine with me. The on-going goofiness of the nickname issue has caused me to conclude that no contact with UND is the best course for now.

They're well on their way towards being the Texas-Pan American Of The North, who have wandered in the wilderness for 14 years now since they left the Sun Belt in 1998.

I'm not sure if UTPA was asked to leave by the Sun Belt, or thought they would get into the Southland as soon as they jumped from the Sun Belt, but they've had a long, hard, difficult road as an independent for a long time.

Although I see that the Southland now has scheduled a visit to UTPA . . . the Broncs' days in the wilderness may be coming to an end at last.

[goon]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

This train wreck will never end.

Part of me likes that Native Americans are supporting the name and fighting for it. I think that is the best chance to actually try to keep it. I think all the crazy hockey fans better keep quiet so they can allow people who this argument is about to take the lead on it. I Think the NCAA trying to be the PC police and do what they think is right, but didn’t talk to the people who might find it offensive. I am sure there are plenty of tribes who find it respectful while plenty of others don’t. It’s also strange that how many schools played UND and others who were suppose to change their names, but all of a sudden it’s not PC to play a school with a abusive nickname, Why didn’t they take a stand years ago and be all righteous then. I say I think schools should only play them if its a good deal for the school, not because the NCAA says they have a bad nickname. I don't care for UND, and we play enough schools in the region but I am not against playing them because of something like this. If its good fit for SDSU to play them then I think we should.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If I am correct in my chonology of events, when UND was accepted for NCAA D1 membership, they were working under the assumption that UND would get the approval from both Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes to use the Sioux Logo. They received the approval from Spirit Lake but did not get approval from Standing Rock by Aug 2009 deadline. In the mean time the legislature got involved and passed a law contrary to the agreement between the NCAA and the Attorney Gen Wayne Stenjeim agreed. UND orginally sued the NCAA in order to use the logo. Then a subsequent meeting with the NCAA this summer in Indianapolis, the NCAA told the ND officals that it would abid with the agreement with Stenjeim and so the ND officals returned to ND with their tails between their legs. This fall they held a special session of the legislature and rescinded the law passed last spring requiring UND to use the Sioux Logo. Now a slimmy lawyer name Soderstom has worked with the Spirit Lake natives and in the background a large contingent of alums in starting a petition to get it on the June ballot. Its a wierd issue to say the least.

Pretty close. A couple of corrections and a retyping.

1. UND decides to go DI.
2. NCAA creates its Native American mascot policy.
3. UND appeals the initial ruling but fails.
4. UND/ND sues the NCAA.
5. When it becomes clear the lawsuit is going to fail, the ND AG negotiates a settlement that allows UND 2 years to get tribal approval.
6. The Summit strings UND along until the settlement deadline will be over.
7. When it becomes clear that UND will not be able to get tribal approval from Standing Rock, the nickname is slated for retirement.
8. The Big Sky enters the picture to grab UND, USD & SUU in an attempt to destabilize the Summit and create the first FCS superconference.
9. This fails when USD is poached back by the Summit/MVFC.
10. A ND lawmaker tries to curtail or destroy the power of higher ed in ND by using the nickname fiasco as a lightning rod; the nickname law is born.
11. After the NCAA refuses to back down and the Big Sky starts making noises, the law is hurriedly repealed during a special session.
12. A group of "Spirit Lake Sioux"(most likely funded by UND hockey supporters) starts a petition to repeal the repeal and also lock the nickname into the state constitution.
13. The first petition gets enough names to get on the June ballot, which automatically suspends the repeal law until June; the Fighting Sioux are back.

See, couldn't be simpler. <facepalm>

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

This train wreck will never end.

Part of me likes that Native Americans are supporting the name and fighting for it. I think that is the best chance to actually try to keep it. I think all the crazy hockey fans better keep quiet so they can allow people who this argument is about to take the lead on it. I Think the NCAA trying to be the PC police and do what they think is right, but didn’t talk to the people who might find it offensive. I am sure there are plenty of tribes who find it respectful while plenty of others don’t. It’s also strange that how many schools played UND and others who were suppose to change their names, but all of a sudden it’s not PC to play a school with a abusive nickname, Why didn’t they take a stand years ago and be all righteous then. I say I think schools should only play them if its a good deal for the school, not because the NCAA says they have a bad nickname. I don't care for UND, and we play enough schools in the region but I am not against playing them because of something like this. If its good fit for SDSU to play them then I think we should.

I've actually come to like the NCAA policy. The more I look into it, the more I feel that it is fair and fairly enacted. First, it only applies to living cultures. Dead cultures the Spartans, Trojan and extinct NA tribes are excluded. Secondly, it gets rid of the worst nicknames like redskins and the like(don't bring up pro teams; they are not within the authority of the NCAA). Next, schools with a right to their names are exempted, like the UNC-Pembroke Braves(they started as a tribal school and still have >20% NA students). In the case of schools with a specific namesake tribe(s), a two-step process is observed. First, whom does the university represent? In the case of Florida State, it's the entire state of Florida. In contrast, Central Michigan only represents the central portion of its state. This determination tells the NCAA which tribes must give approval. In the case of Florida State, Utah and North Dakota, this means every Seminole, Ute and Sioux tribe that has a headquarters in their respective states. There is one Seminole tribe in Florida, one Ute tribe in Utah, and two Sioux tribes in North Dakota. Since Central Michigan only represents the middle portion of Michigan, they just had to get approval from the nearby Chippewa tribe; not every Chippewa tribe in MI. UND managed to get grudging approval from one of the two Sioux tribes in North Dakota but were unable to get official approval from the other. I think this is fair setup if you agree with the basic premise that living cultures should have ownership of their own culture and its representation. If you don't agree with that premise, then none of the rest means anything.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Thanks Hammersmith, you seem to have a better recall than I do and I was not sure how Stenjeim got involved other than to be the Attorney General and why he had made that agreement. UND was losing the war and not even winning a battle. I think the law passed by the legislature and also the upcoming petition which will no doubt pass are both interamural victories.

[goon]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I've actually come to like the NCAA policy. The more I look into it, the more I feel that it is fair and fairly enacted. First, it only applies to living cultures. Dead cultures the Spartans, Trojan and extinct NA tribes are excluded. Secondly, it gets rid of the worst nicknames like redskins and the like(don't bring up pro teams; they are not within the authority of the NCAA). Next, schools with a right to their names are exempted, like the UNC-Pembroke Braves(they started as a tribal school and still have >20% NA students). In the case of schools with a specific namesake tribe(s), a two-step process is observed. First, whom does the university represent? In the case of Florida State, it's the entire state of Florida. In contrast, Central Michigan only represents the central portion of its state. This determination tells the NCAA which tribes must give approval. In the case of Florida State, Utah and North Dakota, this means every Seminole, Ute and Sioux tribe that has a headquarters in their respective states. There is one Seminole tribe in Florida, one Ute tribe in Utah, and two Sioux tribes in North Dakota. Since Central Michigan only represents the middle portion of Michigan, they just had to get approval from the nearby Chippewa tribe; not every Chippewa tribe in MI. UND managed to get grudging approval from one of the two Sioux tribes in North Dakota but were unable to get official approval from the other. I think this is fair setup if you agree with the basic premise that living cultures should have ownership of their own culture and its representation. If you don't agree with that premise, then none of the rest means anything.

Who is the group that made this a big deal, were tribes offended and went to the NCAA or did the NCAA think they know what people are and are not offended by. While UND did get support from one tribe, the other as far as I know did not want to vote. What happens when the PC police decides schools with animal mascots are explotive of animals etc. Not saying its wrong but just wonder why the NCAA decided to take a stand on this after so many years. Where there any lawsuits involving names or a public outcry that the names are hostile and abusive. Or did the NCAA just decide what is and isnt for everyone else?

[joeboo22]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Who is the group that made this a big deal, were tribes offended and went to the NCAA or did the NCAA think they know what people are and are not offended by. While UND did get support from one tribe, the other as far as I know did not want to vote. What happens when the PC police decides schools with animal mascots are explotive of animals etc. Not saying its wrong but just wonder why the NCAA decided to take a stand on this after so many years. Where there any lawsuits involving names or a public outcry that the names are hostile and abusive. Or did the NCAA just decide what is and isnt for everyone else?

From my understanding they did it on their own, but there might have been an individual lawsuit against a specific college/university that prompted the NCAA from making the decision. There point was hostile or abusive nicknames were not to be allowed. They selected 18 of them, and for many they allowed them to get out of it if they got permission from the Tribe. ex. Florida State, Illinois, Central Mich, Utah, and I'm sure there are more.

The problem with UND is they don't have a move to make. Florida State and Illinois are power conference schools in big states that have a history. UND is a transition school on the Canadian border that other then Hockey no one has heard about. The NCAA has been sued before, and here is what the Supreme Court said "were unpalatable does not mean that they were nonexistent" Now yes I understand that UND has Hockey, and the NCAA is the only collegiate hockey association, however nothing is stopping UND from creating their "new college league"

I'm not the biggest NCAA guy, but I do agree with this move, if you are using a nickname that may be offensive you should have to get permission and if you can't get permission (which is clearly stated) in 7 years you should have to change it.

There is also the point I've stated on here.... Don't F with the NCAA, its just not smart. I'd like to find one program who has initiated the problem with the NCAA and came away looking good

[West-River_Jack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

UND managed to get grudging approval from one of the two Sioux tribes in North Dakota but were unable to get official approval from the other. I think this is fair setup if you agree with the basic premise that living cultures should have ownership of their own culture and its representation. If you don't agree with that premise, then none of the rest means anything.

I seem to remember reading that the governing board of the Standing Rock tribe has refused to submit this to a vote of the tribal membership. This makes me think of two questions. The first is, Are the precincts in North Dakota divided such that the votes on a statewide issue can be drilled down to determine how the membership of each tribe has voted? The second question; If they can, and the precincts that include the membership of both tribes should overwhelmingly vote to keep the Fighting Sioux name, does this give the University of North Dakota any legal argument that the membership of both tribes has approved the use of the Fighting Sioux name?

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I seem to remember reading that the governing board of the Standing Rock tribe has refused to submit this to a vote of the tribal membership. This makes me think of two questions. The first is, Are the precincts in North Dakota divided such that the votes on a statewide issue can be drilled down to determine how the membership of each tribe has voted? The second question; If they can, and the precincts that include the membership of both tribes should overwhelmingly vote to keep the Fighting Sioux name, does this give the University of North Dakota any legal argument that the membership of both tribes has approved the use of the Fighting Sioux name?

Listening to McFeeley again yesterday KFGO 790 AM, he and a KFan guy from the twin cities were speaking of this. The committee that started the petition, intends to use the voting patterns from Standing Rock to show everyone that they were right all along, that is if the numbers go their way. The point is the NCAA-UND agreement is over with and it was over with on August 1, 2010, when UND did not have the Standing Rock approval. Anything subsequent does not mean anything to the NCAA or the BSC. This where the committee is being very stupid.

Spirit Lake is very close to Grand Forks and they have often participated in half time activeties with native dances and so forth. They benefit by the UND outreach in medical training and so forth where as Standrock is very much a western part of the state and the ties with UND are not as strong. Plus part of Standing Rock as you are aware is in SD, and seems to be protective of their right of soveignty, and for some predominately white group such as UND to come and tell them that they should be honored by the useage of the logo is a real slap in the face in terms of tribal council members. This how it appears to me

Hammersmith mentioned yesterday that the reason the AG Stenjiem made this agreement based on his chances of winning the case in Federal Court. Apparently they did not look good at the time which was about 2008. Its not about majorities but about minorities and how they might react to a given issue.

It will be interesting to see how Standing Rock does vote on this issue