ND legislature and Sioux name

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

1. Phil Jackson said years ago that UND should drop the name. I don't know what happened between Phil and UND, but there seems to be a gulf between the two. He hadn't been on campus for 20 years until his honorary doctorate back in 2008. He even made note of his views on the nickname during his speech: “What is gained by keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname? What do you lose by changing the name? I propose in this year of change we do the right thing.” His comments came a year after the NCAA settlement but before any decision had been made to drop the nickname.

2. Please remember that the primary party behind this mess is creating havoc in order to bring higher ed in North Dakota under the control of the legislature and could care less about the nickname. Al Carlson(house majority leader) engineered this fiasco in order to turn public support against the ND State Board of Higher Ed. That outrage will be necessary in order to push through a constitutional amendment destroying the SBHE. He proposed the amendment during the last legislative session, but it was defeated within the legislature when the SBHE didn't fight back the way he had expected. He's trying the same thing again now that the SBHE has been forced into challenging the laws in court. The fighting going on over the nickname is just a smokescreen for Carlson's true objectives.

Six months ago I would've said that Carlson had failed and the danger had passed. But the combination of that idiotic petition and the scandal at Dickinson State has thrown things into doubt. Filings for the court case(ND supreme) are due this coming Friday, so we might get a little more info then. So far, outside counsel has been hired for the legislature and secretary of state because the AG will be representing the SBHE. The petition group is also filing a brief in opposition to the SBHE case, and I want to say that one other group is trying to be part of the case, but I could be wrong about that. Such a nice simple case.

Things are going to get worse before they get better. Things might also get worse before they get worse if Carlson gets his way.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

in order to push through a constitutional amendment destroying the SBHE

No offense, but the SBoHE is in need of overhaul.

That board has done a remarkable job of combining overreach with incompetence.

- Assumed control of the nickname in a potentially illegal procedure.

- Launched a spectacularly ill-advised lawsuit against the NCAA

- Failed to do anything to resolve the nickname issue for something like three years after the settlement

- Failed to oversee expenditures at UND & NDSU, and displayed such an air of incompetence that UND's president felt free to advise NDSU's president on the best way of circumventing SBoHE oversight.

- Failed to discover the various Dickinson State scandals (improper degree granting, fictitious students)

And that's what's known.

I have no doubt that a comprehensive audit would uncover significant irregularities at *every* SBoHE school. I think this is the tip of the iceberg as far as SBoHE incompetence is concerned.

By contrast, the worst that the SD BoR has done over the past ten years is persistently negotiate against itself with the state legislature.

In short, the board members currently sitting should be replaced en masse, and at the very least, the charter of the board should be reviewed to see whether the incompetence is a result of sinecure-seeking and jobbing appointments, or if the board's policies and procedures are worthless.

There can be no question regarding the board's failures over the past decade, they are too many to be coincidences and too wide spread to be the result of a single bad egg.

Either way, it behooves the SBoHE to present a solid case for independent review and a willingness for significant change under the current enabling laws, because if the choices are 'status quo' and 'tear it up and start over', it's hard to argue in favor of the status quo.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

No offense, but the SBoHE is in need of overhaul.

That board has done a remarkable job of combining overreach with incompetence.

- Assumed control of the nickname in a potentially illegal procedure.

- Launched a spectacularly ill-advised lawsuit against the NCAA

- Failed to do anything to resolve the nickname issue for something like three years after the settlement

- Failed to oversee expenditures at UND & NDSU, and displayed such an air of incompetence that UND's president felt free to advise NDSU's president on the best way of circumventing SBoHE oversight.

- Failed to discover the various Dickinson State scandals (improper degree granting, fictitious students)

And that's what's known.

I have no doubt that a comprehensive audit would uncover significant irregularities at *every* SBoHE school. I think this is the tip of the iceberg as far as SBoHE incompetence is concerned.

By contrast, the worst that the SD BoR has done over the past ten years is persistently negotiate against itself with the state legislature.

In short, the board members currently sitting should be replaced en masse, and at the very least, the charter of the board should be reviewed to see whether the incompetence is a result of sinecure-seeking and jobbing appointments, or if the board's policies and procedures are worthless.

There can be no question regarding the board's failures over the past decade, they are too many to be coincidences and too wide spread to be the result of a single bad egg.

Either way, it behooves the SBoHE to present a solid case for independent review and a willingness for significant change under the current enabling laws, because if the choices are 'status quo' and 'tear it up and start over', it's hard to argue in favor of the status quo.

Wow, I was not aware of all this Zoo. From the outside looking in, it certainly seems like the SBoHE needs a thorough cleaning or rebuild.

Edit: How are people in ND not outraged at such a poorly run organization?

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I had a longish post halfway finished, but I think I can sum it up in a few sentences instead. Whatever problems the SBHE has(and I disagree with zoo on the seriousness of the problems), it's not enough to warrant the dissolving of the board. And even if a major overhaul is needed, the very last person I want heading it is Al Carlson. The only way something good would come out of that is pure accident.

We have a broken system in ND, but it's not centered around the SBHE. We have six public 4-year schools for 675k people, and five 2-year schools. But we can't shut any of them down because they're in the state constitution. And we can't reduce funding to any of them significantly because then the legislature pitches a fit. There are only a few good solutions and none of them work politically or without a huge boatload of money. And our penny pinching legislature won't go for that either. So you can reform things however you want, but the same problems will still exist until the fundamentals in the constitution and legislature are addressed. And do we really want to throw our educational system through a food processor over a nickname? Because that's what it would boil down to if it comes to a vote in the next 18 months.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Wow, I was not aware of all this Zoo. From the outside looking in, it certainly seems like the SBoHE needs a thorough cleaning or rebuild.

Edit: How are people in ND not outraged at such a poorly run organization?

Maybe I will have to go point by point over zoo's issues sometime, but the quick version is that he's got some serious(but honest) exaggeration going on. If you really want a play by play of the different situations, we can do that. But know that zoo and I have greatly differing opinions on how the SBHE has handled things over the past decade or so. Much of the differences in our opinions comes from the fact that I live in the state and have a better idea(in my mind at least) of what the overall situation is. Many of zoo's ideas about the SBHE look good on paper to an outsider, but there are other factors going on that an outsider might not be aware of. And some of the decisions of the SBHE might look bad to an outsider, but they are actually one of the only possible decisions given the circumstances within the state. As I said in my other previous post, we have a broken system, but dissolving the SBHE won't fix it.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I had a longish post halfway finished, but I think I can sum it up in a few sentences instead. Whatever problems the SBHE has(and I disagree with zoo on the seriousness of the problems), it's not enough to warrant the dissolving of the board. And even if a major overhaul is needed, the very last person I want heading it is Al Carlson. The only way something good would come out of that is pure accident.

When you consider that the DSU scandal was discovered purely by accident, I find it difficult to have confidence in the SBoHE, especially when you've got that on-the-record quote about 'lining them all up on the green' or some such from UND.

I have no doubt that the SBoHE's response to this existential challenge will be as feckless as their handling of the nickname issue.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

When you consider that the DSU scandal was discovered purely by accident, I find it difficult to have confidence in the SBoHE, especially when you've got that on-the-record quote about 'lining them all up on the green' or some such from UND.

I have no doubt that the SBoHE's response to this existential challenge will be as feckless as their handling of the nickname issue.

The DSU scandal is by far the worst of the lot. I haven't dug into the audit report yet to see how much the SBHE could've done. But the heart of the scandal is the drive for students that has gripped every campus in the state. The SBHE is partially responsible for the situation, but they are far from alone. As for a response, I don't know who is left to fire in the administration. The president was fired months ago. The provost was packing his bags before the audit was finished. The registrar took off before the audit started. The dean of education killed himself the day the audit's finding were released. I would be concerned any further firings might be a ready-shoot-aim sort of thing. The new president is going to need a couple more months to put his own people in place and get some details on who knew what and what further actions need to be taken.

-quick addition: The new DSU president just reported that the school is shutting down the program that resulted in much of the scandal. No big surprise there. The next step should be for the SBHE to look into all programs at ND schools which deal specifically with foreign students.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Maybe I will have to go point by point over zoo's issues sometime, but the quick version is that he's got some serious(but honest) exaggeration going on. If you really want a play by play of the different situations, we can do that. But know that zoo and I have greatly differing opinions on how the SBHE has handled things over the past decade or so. Much of the differences in our opinions comes from the fact that I live in the state and have a better idea(in my mind at least) of what the overall situation is. Many of zoo's ideas about the SBHE look good on paper to an outsider, but there are other factors going on that an outsider might not be aware of. And some of the decisions of the SBHE might look bad to an outsider, but they are actually one of the only possible decisions given the circumstances within the state. As I said in my other previous post, we have a broken system, but dissolving the SBHE won't fix it.

- Did the SBoHE not take control of the nickname away from UND at a meeting which potentially violated ND's open meetings laws?

- Was the NCAA lawsuit even remotely a good idea? If there were political pressures driving that lawsuit, then what independence does the SBoHE have that's worth protecting?

- When did the SBoHE develop the framework under which tribal consent would be accepted? Summer 2010 is what I recall. Did the SBoHE negotiate seriously with either tribe at any time before that?

- Did audits not uncover deliberate circumvention of SBoHE procedures at both UND & NDSU?

- Did UND's president not advise Chapman on how to break up construction projects into increments that passed under the SBoHE oversight threshold? (in banking terms, I believe this is what's called 'structuring')

- Did DSU not grant degrees to students who had not met degree requirements?

- Did DSU not fraudulently alter student enrollment figures?

None of that is exaggerated. Am I exaggerating when I say this is the tip of the iceberg? I don't think so.

Shoot, the DSU enrollment fraud was discovered by what was it? a company making a phone book?

And I don't think that 'many' of my ideas (comprehensive independent audit, review of policy, charter & procedure, replacement of board) are impractical. Only replacement of the board is probably impractical

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

As for a response, I don't know who is left to fire

At DSU? Depends on who did the heavy-lifting when it comes to the fraud. At the SBoHE? Who knows.

You're either dealing with auditors at the SBoHE who have not been doing their jobs, or you're dealing with an organization that has an inadequate auditing policy. I don't know which is the case. It might be a little of both.

Ultimately, IMO, Carlson will get his way if the SBoHE offers only stale bread as an alternative.

And, to be quite clear, I think that will be the worst possible outcome. The problem is I just don't see any alternative as realistic.

[Prairiehaas]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

1. Phil Jackson said years ago that UND should drop the name. I don't know what happened between Phil and UND, but there seems to be a gulf between the two. He hadn't been on campus for 20 years until his honorary doctorate back in 2008. He even made note of his views on the nickname during his speech: “What is gained by keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname? What do you lose by changing the name? I propose in this year of change we do the right thing.” His comments came a year after the NCAA settlement but before any decision had been made to drop the nickname.

Back to UND nickname discussion. Perhaps a change to The Phighting Phils!

[KUlawJack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

1. Phil Jackson said years ago that UND should drop the name. I don't know what happened between Phil and UND, but there seems to be a gulf between the two. He hadn't been on campus for 20 years until his honorary doctorate back in 2008. He even made note of his views on the nickname during his speech: “What is gained by keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname? What do you lose by changing the name? I propose in this year of change we do the right thing.” His comments came a year after the NCAA settlement but before any decision had been made to drop the nickname.

2. Please remember that the primary party behind this mess is creating havoc in order to bring higher ed in North Dakota under the control of the legislature and could care less about the nickname. Al Carlson(house majority leader) engineered this fiasco in order to turn public support against the ND State Board of Higher Ed. That outrage will be necessary in order to push through a constitutional amendment destroying the SBHE. He proposed the amendment during the last legislative session, but it was defeated within the legislature when the SBHE didn't fight back the way he had expected. He's trying the same thing again now that the SBHE has been forced into challenging the laws in court. The fighting going on over the nickname is just a smokescreen for Carlson's true objectives.

Six months ago I would've said that Carlson had failed and the danger had passed. But the combination of that idiotic petition and the scandal at Dickinson State has thrown things into doubt. Filings for the court case(ND supreme) are due this coming Friday, so we might get a little more info then. So far, outside counsel has been hired for the legislature and secretary of state because the AG will be representing the SBHE. The petition group is also filing a brief in opposition to the SBHE case, and I want to say that one other group is trying to be part of the case, but I could be wrong about that. Such a nice simple case.

Things are going to get worse before they get better. Things might also get worse before they get worse if Carlson gets his way.

So, because the AG has to defend the SBHE, the legislature has to hire outside counsel? Who is footing the bill for the outside counsel? I think we know. Simply amazing.

Nice work North Dakota on making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

North Dakota taxpayers are paying for the lawyers on both sides of this case. Think about that.

[KUlawJack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

North Dakota taxpayers are paying for the lawyers on both sides of this case. Think about that.

Job Security!

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Job Security!

And I know that this happens frequently at the national level, when Congressional subpoenas are fought by executive departments, but what is particularly bizarre about all this is that the taxpayers are funding both sides of the legal debate over a law that has been repealed.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I think the SBoHE should hire Zoopra. He seems to have a good feel for whats going on.

Seriously, there are problems in ND, but not everything is perfect in SD either. Funding education, we hardly believe in that.