ND legislature and Sioux name

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I seem to remember reading that the governing board of the Standing Rock tribe has refused to submit this to a vote of the tribal membership. This makes me think of two questions. The first is, Are the precincts in North Dakota divided such that the votes on a statewide issue can be drilled down to determine how the membership of each tribe has voted? The second question; If they can, and the precincts that include the membership of both tribes should overwhelmingly vote to keep the Fighting Sioux name, does this give the University of North Dakota any legal argument that the membership of both tribes has approved the use of the Fighting Sioux name?

The problems with this are several. First, not everybody living in Sioux County is a member of the Standing Rock tribe. Second, not every ND member of the Standing Rock tribe lives in Sioux County. But the big problem is that over half of the Standing Rock reservation is located in South Dakota. When you factor in that the voter turnout will likely be low, there will be way too much uncertainty to draw any solid conclusions. Of course, that won't stop nickname supporters from doing exactly that.

[goon]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I guess the tribal members who support the nickname can refer to that cultural difference that the ncaa is worried about protecting. Native american culture does not do a stright up and down vote. Then don't do polls. Tradionally the elders speak on behalf of the tribe which may or may not be how most of the tribal members feel. Maybe the ncaa should have considered cultural differences in how a vote is actually suppose to take place. Is standing rock 50 50 in sd and nd or majority in one state or the other? Has the spriit lake members tried to reach out to standing rock and ask for their support? If by chance und does get support proven by both I could see a lawsuit going to the ncaa which at that point could go either way imo.

Would it be possible for und to drop the fighting and change to say the und spirt sioux. To connection to one tribe. In turn making all parties involved happy.

[joeboo22]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I guess the tribal members who support the nickname can refer to that cultural difference that the ncaa is worried about protecting. Native american culture does not do a stright up and down vote. Then don't do polls. Tradionally the elders speak on behalf of the tribe which may or may not be how most of the tribal members feel. Maybe the ncaa should have considered cultural differences in how a vote is actually suppose to take place. Is standing rock 50 50 in sd and nd or majority in one state or the other? Has the spriit lake members tried to reach out to standing rock and ask for their support? If by chance und does get support proven by both I could see a lawsuit going to the ncaa which at that point could go either way imo.

Would it be possible for und to drop the fighting and change to say the und spirt sioux. To connection to one tribe. In turn making all parties involved happy.

From my friends up north, I get the impression no compromise will happen. A certain % want a complete change, and a certain % want it the same, the rest don't really give ea flying $#@% about it.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I guess the tribal members who support the nickname can refer to that cultural difference that the ncaa is worried about protecting. Native american culture does not do a stright up and down vote. Then don't do polls. Tradionally the elders speak on behalf of the tribe which may or may not be how most of the tribal members feel. Maybe the ncaa should have considered cultural differences in how a vote is actually suppose to take place. Is standing rock 50 50 in sd and nd or majority in one state or the other? Has the spriit lake members tried to reach out to standing rock and ask for their support? If by chance und does get support proven by both I could see a lawsuit going to the ncaa which at that point could go either way imo.

Would it be possible for und to drop the fighting and change to say the und spirt sioux. To connection to one tribe. In turn making all parties involved happy.

You're actually hitting another part of the problem. A vote doesn't really mean anything to the NCAA. The NCAA requires written permission from each party(SR & SL) using whatever method is legally binding in their respective governments. There is no option in the SR constitution for a vote of the general membership. All decisions are handled by their tribal council. So even if a vote were to happen, it would not be legally binding and not satisfy the NCAA. There was a mechanism in the SL constitution for a non-binding vote. That vote took place and the SL tribal council chose to stand behind it. SR does not have that option; it's the tribal council or nothing.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

You're actually hitting another part of the problem. A vote doesn't really mean anything to the NCAA. The NCAA requires written permission from each party(SR & SL) using whatever method is legally binding in their respective governments. There is no option in the SR constitution for a vote of the general membership. All decisions are handled by their tribal council. So even if a vote were to happen, it would not be legally binding and not satisfy the NCAA. There was a mechanism in the SL constitution for a non-binding vote. That vote took place and the SL tribal council chose to stand behind it. SR does not have that option; it's the tribal council or nothing.

I know some of the NDSU Fans do not like McFeely, but I do and enjoy listening to him. Mike keep mentioning this over and over but still got calls claiming that the NCAA would change their minds when they saw the Reservation votes.

[Theee Catrabbit]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I think Fullerton's dialogue yesterday was plenty strong regarding the Big Sky's position. I don't know how anyone could view it otherwise. They are not happy. Buyer's remorse if you will. Plus, it is not clear that a unanimous vote is needed at this point to kick UND out. UND is in probationary status. Fullerton said that to kick out a full member requires a unanimous vote. Nothing was mentioned about a probationary member.

Questions unanswered at this point. I personally think UND is getting what is coming to it for handling this issue so poorly.

Good point on the probationary member. You lawyers are some sly ones But since they were voted in initially, it would seem BSC would still need the dozen unanimous to kick a school out. Fullerton said a dozen, so to me that says SUU gets a vote as well, which would be a probationary member. I would think by the time a vote would even be enacted UND will be considered a full member. Harsh dialog to me is deadlines and get in line, quit effin-around....to me it sounded too wishy washy and "Oh we want them still", which they don't. Without a deadline SH$t takes forever, hire a contractor without a deadline sometime and see how that works out. But all good points, KULaw.

[jackrabit1]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

About the only way this can get more ridiculous is if someone hires Gloria Allred.

[OKC_Poke]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I'm starting to think the Crazy Horse Memorial in the Black Hills will be done LLLLLLOOOOOONNNNNGGGG before this stupid nickname mess is finally done.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I'm starting to think the Crazy Horse Memorial in the Black Hills will be done LLLLLLOOOOOONNNNNGGGG before this stupid nickname mess is finally done.

Maybe that's the answer. The University of North Dakota Crazy Horses.

[goon]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Maybe that's the answer. The University of North Dakota Crazy Horses.

So does Crazy horse get to vote. All kidding aside. I still think if they tweek their name just a little, incorporate the tribe that supports the nickname, so it would be just representing one sioux tribe. not needing the vote of the other since its nickname is the just representing 1 tribe. Would that satisfy all parties involved?

[Roy]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

IIUC the "reasonable alternative" train left the station some years ago!

[SDSF]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Who is the group that made this a big deal, were tribes offended and went to the NCAA or did the NCAA think they know what people are and are not offended by. While UND did get support from one tribe, the other as far as I know did not want to vote. What happens when the PC police decides schools with animal mascots are explotive of animals etc. Not saying its wrong but just wonder why the NCAA decided to take a stand on this after so many years. Where there any lawsuits involving names or a public outcry that the names are hostile and abusive. Or did the NCAA just decide what is and isnt for everyone else?

Well, the final push came from a NCC school SCSU.

The President of St. Cloud State was one of the drivers of the policy you see today. I say this based on two sources: Last spring the St. Cloud Times had an interview with Mr. Roy Saigo (President at SCSU from 2000 – 2007) just after UND announced that they were changing the name. Mr. Roy said that he cried when he heard the news and stated that it was his greatest achievement as President of St. Cloud St. In addition, NCAA gave two primary reasons for the policy: 1) A statement issued by US Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 about the use of Native American Images and Nicknames as sport symbols (http://www.usccr.gov/press/archives/2001/041601st.htm) and 2) a letter from President Roy Saigo of St. Cloud State University requesting a NCAA resolution denouncing the use of Native American names.

I am not sure if SDSU fans are aware of the issues UND had when visiting St. Cloud in the early 2000’s. It was very difficult for UND fans to attend games at that time because protesters were allowed into the arena and they lined the visitors sections of the arena. http://www.undnews.com/stcloud2.htm

The irony of this situation is that SCSU was granted freedom from the Fighting Sioux name and the requirement to play the Sioux on a yearly basis when UND announced that it was leaving the WCHA to form a new conference (NCHC). Unfortunately SCSU cried foul and worked the back channels by hiring a consultant (Gino) to gain admittance in the NCHC. http://www.stcloudstate.edu/athletic...?storyID=34656 I believe that Gino (ex UND player/ ex UND assist coach/ ex UND Head Coach (3 time Nat Champ)/ ex UND AD) is now the AD at SCSU.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Well, the final push came from a NCC school SCSU.

The President of St. Cloud State was one of the drivers of the policy you see today. I say this based on two sources: Last spring the St. Cloud Times had an interview with Mr. Roy Saigo (President at SCSU from 2000 – 2007) just after UND announced that they were changing the name. Mr. Roy said that he cried when he heard the news and stated that it was his greatest achievement as President of St. Cloud St. In addition, NCAA gave two primary reasons for the policy: 1) A statement issued by US Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 about the use of Native American Images and Nicknames as sport symbols (http://www.usccr.gov/press/archives/2001/041601st.htm) and 2) a letter from President Roy Saigo of St. Cloud State University requesting a NCAA resolution denouncing the use of Native American names.

I am not sure if SDSU fans are aware of the issues UND had when visiting St. Cloud in the early 2000’s. It was very difficult for UND fans to attend games at that time because protesters were allowed into the arena and they lined the visitors sections of the arena. http://www.undnews.com/stcloud2.htm

The irony of this situation is that SCSU was granted freedom from the Fighting Sioux name and the requirement to play the Sioux on a yearly basis when UND announced that it was leaving the WCHA to form a new conference (NCHC). Unfortunately SCSU cried foul and worked the back channels by hiring a consultant (Gino) to gain admittance in the NCHC. http://www.stcloudstate.edu/athletic...?storyID=34656 I believe that Gino (ex UND player/ ex UND assist coach/ ex UND Head Coach (3 time Nat Champ)/ ex UND AD) is now the AD at SCSU.

Ah, the Huskies. A nickname truly offensive to weight-challenged people.

The stupid, it burns!

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

UND's hockey coach, a strident supporter of retaining the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, has changed his tune. He now concedes there may be irreparable damage to UND athletics if the name/logo is retained. Here's a story link to the Grand Forks Herald:
http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...cle/id/229563/

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

UND's hockey coach, a strident supporter of retaining the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, has changed his tune. He now concedes there may be irreparable damage to UND athletics if the name/logo is retained. Here's a story link to the Grand Forks Herald:
http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...cle/id/229563/

Apparently, the coach as gotten the message not only from the adminstration, but also his father in law whose last name is Okeefe and a big wig on the UND Alumni Council which is both responsible for social events and fund raising. Okeefe had an opinion piece in Sunday's Forum telling how unproductive this controversy was and it should end.

How the vote on this issue goes in June will be interesting. On the surface it looks like a slam dunk, but it all depends who turns out that Tuesday and how they vote.