NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

[rational thought]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

Dykstra (offer from Iowa State)? Wolters (offer from Colorado State)?

I believe Dykstra and ISU had a parting of ways on the offer.....

[bigticket1]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

I believe Dykstra and ISU had a parting of ways on the offer.....

I don't believe it was because of basketball ability. ISU wanted Dykstra to not participate in any high school activities other than basketball,which he was not willing to do.

[jackmd]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

Support us with facts saying that Coach Nagy can recruit. In the past five years name players that were recruited by bigger, more established programs please.

You are inferring that a player deemed DI quality has to be recruited by a certain number of DI schools. You are also inferring that when a player is recruited by a school that information is readily available to all. Neither of those things can be assumed.

I don't have a personal qualm with anyone as it pertains to this topic. It isn't our decision to make and the fact Coach Nagy has the support of those who make the decision is enough for me to support him. I've often voiced my own criticism of Coach Nagy and other coaches and I now believe I was wrong to do so. That doesn't mean others can't offer criticism or that a rebuttal is not appropriate.

[jackmd]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

I don't believe it was because of basketball ability. ISU wanted Dykstra to not participate in any high school activities other than basketball,which he was not willing to do.

And a coaching change occurred, if I'm remembering correctly.

Let me try some ill-conceived logic:

Coach Nagy and his staff should have been able to go out and sell well-established DI recruits on the idea of joining a transitioning team with no opportunity for post-season play. If I was a recruit and had other DI offers I'd still choose a transitioning team, I don't know what some of those kids were thinking. Fiegen and White definitely wouldn't have had any DI offers had they not given early verbal commitments to SDSU. I'm no college basketball coach but I can tell they aren't really good enough to be DI. In fact, I knew that when we offered them. Same with Horstman.

[rational thought]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

And a coaching change occurred, if I'm remembering correctly.

ISU coach has been there 4 years....and next year may be his last

[jackmd]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

ISU coach has been there 4 years....and next year may be his last

Thanks. I just checked and this was his 4th season. Hired from UNI in March 2006. NDSU before that and Wayne State before that. Regarded as a great evaluator of talent and he wanted Dykstra.

So, I was wrong, no coaching change.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

Hey, I looked up some other coaches some of us might recognize and their early career DI coaching accomplishments:

John Calipari was 47-45 (.510) after his first 3 seasons at UMass. Apparently he hadn't figured out how to cheat yet.

Bill Self was 34-47 (.419)after his first 3 seasons at Oral Roberts.

Billy Donovan was 49-41 (.544) after his first 3 seasons at Florida.

Rick Barnes was 68-53 (.561) after his first 4 seasons at Providence.

Stew Morril was 63-56 (.529)after his first 4 seasons at Colorado State. If you don't recognize his name, don't feel too bad. He coaches at Utah State now. His record since taking over at Utah State is 294-99 (.748). How have I never heard of this guy? I'm ashamed of myself.

All of these "coaching greats" had the benefits of being NCAA tournament eligible, playing in a conference, and having a full staff early in their careers. A couple had the benefit of playing in a "major" conference. All are among the top 10 winners in the last 5 years.

2 years of tournament eligibility is hardly enough time to evaluate a coaches ability, IMO. Especially when that coach won over 78% of his games prior to the DI transition.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

The only issue I have with Nagy over the recent departures is Rader and Cassaday. He recruited them and they clearly are not DI level talent. I know that happens at all programs. I'm not sure what Nagy could have done about the personal situations of Cordova and Palarca. I don't why, but think Cordova will have a change of mind.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

Hey, I looked up some other coaches some of us might recognize and their early career DI coaching accomplishments:

John Calipari was 47-45 (.510) after his first 3 seasons at UMass. Apparently he hadn't figured out how to cheat yet.

Bill Self was 34-47 (.419)after his first 3 seasons at Oral Roberts.

Billy Donovan was 49-41 (.544) after his first 3 seasons at Florida.

Rick Barnes was 68-53 (.561) after his first 4 seasons at Providence.

Stew Morril was 63-56 (.529)after his first 4 seasons at Colorado State. If you don't recognize his name, don't feel too bad. He coaches at Utah State now. His record since taking over at Utah State is 294-99 (.748). How have I never heard of this guy? I'm ashamed of myself.

All of these "coaching greats" had the benefits of being NCAA tournament eligible, playing in a conference, and having a full staff early in their careers. A couple had the benefit of playing in a "major" conference. All are among the top 10 winners in the last 5 years.

2 years of tournament eligibility is hardly enough time to evaluate a coaches ability, IMO. Especially when that coach won over 78% of his games prior to the DI transition.

Not to stir the pot, but we haven't sniffed those winning percentages in years. If the point is to show that great coaches on crappy teams had better records than Nagy has had, then point taken. If it's to use as a comparable to Nagy's records, I think that point was missed. I don't like comparisons because it's hard to compare someone from UMass with that recruiting base to someone coaching at SDSU with a limited recruiting base (and "limited" is being very generous).

The hardest part for our basketball team is recruiting D1 kids when there are a ton of better options within a couple hours of our campus. Iowa, Wisc, Minn, Creighton, UNI, etc are all going to be infinitely more appealing than SD. That's a fact. Nagy, and any coach after him, is going to be left taking flyers on kids who are either flying under the radar (increasingly more impossible with the advent of the internet and AAU) and/or someone who he hopes will blossom into a D1 talent.

If we hired Bob Knight tomorrow, he would have a difficult time recruiting. Tubby is recruiting with a NCAA title on his mantle and the Big Ten conference on his lapel and he's not exactly bringing in the John Walls of the world. He, along with Iowa, IS stealing the best D1 talent our state has to offer, though. If we can't get the Larson's of the state (discussion of his troubles notwithstanding) to come to SDSU, how much blame can we really put on Nagy or any basketball coach?

I'm not interested in blaming Nagy for the problems we've had with the roster in recent years. A lot of those problems were due in part to the risks he has to take in order to recruit at our level now. It's a vicious circle at this point. We need to have good talent come in and stay in order for us to win. But, good talent is only going to come here when we can show them this is a place where they can come and play for a winner. If anyone can answer that chicken v. egg question, I'm all ears.

[bigticket1]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

Not to stir the pot, but we haven't sniffed those winning percentages in years. If the point is to show that great coaches on crappy teams had better records than Nagy has had, then point taken. If it's to use as a comparable to Nagy's records, I think that point was missed. I don't like comparisons because it's hard to compare someone from UMass with that recruiting base to someone coaching at SDSU with a limited recruiting base (and "limited" is being very generous).

The hardest part for our basketball team is recruiting D1 kids when there are a ton of better options within a couple hours of our campus. Iowa, Wisc, Minn, Creighton, UNI, etc are all going to be infinitely more appealing than SD. That's a fact. Nagy, and any coach after him, is going to be left taking flyers on kids who are either flying under the radar (increasingly more impossible with the advent of the internet and AAU) and/or someone who he hopes will blossom into a D1 talent.

If we hired Bob Knight tomorrow, he would have a difficult time recruiting. Tubby is recruiting with a NCAA title on his mantle and the Big Ten conference on his lapel and he's not exactly bringing in the John Walls of the world. He, along with Iowa, IS stealing the best D1 talent our state has to offer, though. If we can't get the Larson's of the state (discussion of his troubles notwithstanding) to come to SDSU, how much blame can we really put on Nagy or any basketball coach?

I'm not interested in blaming Nagy for the problems we've had with the roster in recent years. A lot of those problems were due in part to the risks he has to take in order to recruit at our level now. It's a vicious circle at this point. We need to have good talent come in and stay in order for us to win. But, good talent is only going to come here when we can show them this is a place where they can come and play for a winner. If anyone can answer that chicken v. egg question, I'm all ears.

You hit the nail on the head. the coaching staff could spend their time and recruiting budget on recruiting top 50 players,but that doesn't mean they would have any success. And let's be honest - we all think ( and rightfully so ) that South Dakota,Minnesota and Iowa are great places to live.But if kids from Chicago,Detroit,Kansas City,California etc... have other options,Brookings,Sioux Falls,Mankato etc.. are not going to be high on their lists.We need to be realistic on our recruiting targets,and I think our staff has. This doesn't mean we can't land a high level recruit,but we also need to be realistic.

[LakeJack]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

If anyone can answer that chicken v. egg question, I'm all ears.

I'll take a shot and say egg. The '09 class was outstanding Wolters, Fiegen, White, and Carlson and was the most talented in school history. Follow that up with Heemstra and Dykstra now the most talented and I feel really good about the future of Jackrabbit Bball.

Now we have 4 more scholarships to work with to get some JUCO help for right away and additional spots to add to the '11 class that has Horstman, the kind of success that these kids will bring will only make recruiting easier. So I say egg. It took a long time, but we finally have lots of eggs in our basket.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

I'll take a shot and say egg. The '09 class was outstanding Wolters, Fiegen, White, and Carlson and was the most talented in school history. Follow that up with Heemstra and Dykstra now the most talented and I feel really good about the future of Jackrabbit Bball.

Now we have 4 more scholarships to work with to get some JUCO help for right away and additional spots to add to the '11 class that has Horstman, the kind of success that these kids will bring will only make recruiting easier. So I say egg. It took a long time, but we finally have lots of eggs in our basket.

I tend to agree. I think we have an excellent talent base right now. I'm generally of the camp that keeps Nagy. I think he is good for the school and has proven he can win. He has also battled through a lot of adversity both off and on the court during the past 6 years - not all reported. I'd like to see what he can do with the talent he's amassed. The problems will start if key components of these young classes start to implode/leave like in years past. That seems to be the roadmap since we've started the transition.

One last throw-in on coaching. Never underestimate how hard it is to control the mercurial nature of young athletes. Nagy has had a run of them (starting w/ Holdren) that would put stress on any coach. Such is life as a coach in today's world. Instead of answering coaches questions with "Yes Sir" and "No Sir" players are more and more answering with "Why should I?"

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

Not to stir the pot, but we haven't sniffed those winning percentages in years. If the point is to show that great coaches on crappy teams had better records than Nagy has had, then point taken. If it's to use as a comparable to Nagy's records, I think that point was missed. I don't like comparisons because it's hard to compare someone from UMass with that recruiting base to someone coaching at SDSU with a limited recruiting base (and "limited" is being very generous).

The hardest part for our basketball team is recruiting D1 kids when there are a ton of better options within a couple hours of our campus. Iowa, Wisc, Minn, Creighton, UNI, etc are all going to be infinitely more appealing than SD. That's a fact. Nagy, and any coach after him, is going to be left taking flyers on kids who are either flying under the radar (increasingly more impossible with the advent of the internet and AAU) and/or someone who he hopes will blossom into a D1 talent.

If we hired Bob Knight tomorrow, he would have a difficult time recruiting. Tubby is recruiting with a NCAA title on his mantle and the Big Ten conference on his lapel and he's not exactly bringing in the John Walls of the world. He, along with Iowa, IS stealing the best D1 talent our state has to offer, though. If we can't get the Larson's of the state (discussion of his troubles notwithstanding) to come to SDSU, how much blame can we really put on Nagy or any basketball coach?

I'm not interested in blaming Nagy for the problems we've had with the roster in recent years. A lot of those problems were due in part to the risks he has to take in order to recruit at our level now. It's a vicious circle at this point. We need to have good talent come in and stay in order for us to win. But, good talent is only going to come here when we can show them this is a place where they can come and play for a winner. If anyone can answer that chicken v. egg question, I'm all ears.

I guess I was trying to make several points. The biggest being that even fantastic coaches have struggle with rebuilding a program. And that is in the best of times (tournament eligibility, conference affiliation, full staffs, etc).

The list of coaches I provided aren't just great coaches, along with Coach K, they are arguably among the top 3% of coaches in the country. And they struggled when rebuilding a DI basketball program with full DI membership.

RICK PITINO went 14-14 his first year at KENTUCKY while facing the similar circumstances as the SDSU basketball team over the first 4 years of transition.

You are right, we haven't had a team over .500 in since 2004. 6 years ago. 4 of those years were spent in the equivalent of an NCAA death penalty. Maybe worse than a death penalty in some ways. The last two years have shown progress. Maybe that progress isn't fast enough for some fans, but it is progress nonetheless.

And 2 years of playing with the full advantages of a DI program aren't enough to judge whether or not someone can coach at the DI level. During those 2 seasons, SDSU has had a record of 27-36 (.428). That's not good, but considering the fact that we're trying to build a DI program from scratch, it isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be either.

As for recruiting, we aren't going to get top tier recruits because we aren't a top tier basketball school. Players like Mike Miller, Jared Reiner, Colton Iverson, and Cody Larson probably aren't going to come to SDSU even if we won 20 games a year. Unless we somehow sign them early. Because elite players go to elite basketball schools (right now, Minnesota isn't an elite basketball school, which is why Tubby is having trouble). Maybe we steal a kid every 10 years, but it won't happen regularly. And that's okay. You don't need elite players to win a mediocre conference.

In conclusion, unless we win less than 10 games next year, Nagy will be at least through the 2011-2012 season. And he should.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

One last throw-in on coaching. Never underestimate how hard it is to control the mercurial nature of young athletes. Nagy has had a run of them (starting w/ Holdren) that would put stress on any coach. Such is life as a coach in today's world. Instead of answering coaches questions with "Yes Sir" and "No Sir" players are more and more answering with "Why should I?"

That was me channeling my inner "I walked to school, uphill both ways in 3 feet of snow in bare feet" speech.

[Just in the crowd]

Re: NAGY must ... Stay (for awhile)

The only problem I have is with the recruiting. It will be hard for us to compete when we continue to bring in players from small schools who play in small town conferences, and in lower divisions within their states.

Greg Kampe doesn't have any problems bringing in players from Detroit, Lansing, Flint, Chicago, New Orleans.

Scott Sutton doesn't have any problems getting players from Kansas City, Tulsa, Atlanta, Raleigh-Durham, Portland.

Ron Hunter has players from Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Orlando.

Dane Fife scored players from Atlantic City, Fort Lauderdale, St. Louis, Detroit.

We keep going to:

Madison, SD
Winner, SD
Rock Valley, IA
Volga, SD
Brookings. SD
Bowman, ND
Brandon, SD