ND legislature and Sioux name

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The trend in the outcome did not change significantly and with all 464 precinits reporting, the out come was about 60 per cent in favor of Measure 4. They also had a religious freedom measure that went down in flames as did the property tax abolishment, the last measure, I forgot what its about. No affect on SDSUFans.com, however. It appears all the Bison fans who wanted to destroy UND by voting no on this measure stayed home or where convinced otherwise, that resumption of the rivalry will be good for the State of ND. I dont think many on this board would want USD to loose their standing with NCAA in order to preserve the state animal as a logo. Many moons ago both USD and SDSU used good judgement in picking logos and btw, I drove around Vermillion the other day. Boy construction is going on there that rivals SDSU, its good for SD.

UND was always a worthy opponent, and I wish them the best going forward.

I was very surprised, and pleasantly so, about the results(even if I did abstain on the nickname measure). The opposition to the religious measure cranked up in the final week with quite a few ads, and it failed badly with 64.04% against. The failure of the property tax abolishment was epic; 76.55% against. Maybe the wildest vote, or at least the closest, came in Fargo. We were voting on another half-cent sales tax to pay for flood protection and other infrastructure improvements. We needed 60% to pass and got 60.28%; a difference of 63 votes out of 21,855 and only 8 votes shy of an automatic recount. We will now continue with 2% city and .5% county sales taxes to pay for infrastructural and flood control. Opposition to the sales tax also cost one of the city commissioners his job. We had three valid candidates for two seats. The challenger was for the tax; she got the most votes. The incumbent that was mildly against came in second, and the incumbent who was vehemently opposed came in third. It was an interesting night in ND.

[Prairiehaas]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I'm not completely cognizant of the issues but it appears the voters in ND repudiated a collection of extreme viewpoints on Tuesday.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

While I'm philosophically opposed to the very concept of a property tax (footnote 1), you have to propose something else to replace that tax revenue if you undertake to eliminate the property tax. It's not at all clear that the ND property tax eliminators did that, or if they did, they obviously did a bad job of communicating.

I can understand the reticence of Upper-Midwesterners to believe that the windfall of the oil boom would translate into lasting economic benefit. You don't learn to live on the treacherous, windswept plains without a certain common-sense conservatism about such matters seeping into your bones.

(footnote 2)

- - - footnotes follow - - -

Footnote 1: I personally believe a property tax is among the most immoral of taxes--a property tax says that you don't actually own "your" property, you're just renting it from the guv'ment--and if you don't think so, try not paying your property taxes for a few years and see what happens to your "ownership" of said property. Property tax is rent paid to the government, pure and simple. Property taxes say that that the government owns everything, and simply allows you the use of it, as long as you pay. We fought a revolution against such ideas, a while back. Won it, too. IMHO the "fairest" form of taxation would be some form of total-net-worth tax. Unfortunately that kind of tax is among the hardest to implement. It's an inconvenient universe.)

Footnote 2: I now ban myself for an indeterminate period of time for the offense of overtly political talk on this board.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

While I'm philosophically opposed to the very concept of a property tax (footnote 1), you have to propose something else to replace that tax revenue if you undertake to eliminate the property tax. It's not at all clear that the ND property tax eliminators did that, or if they did, they obviously did a bad job of communicating.

I can understand the reticence of Upper-Midwesterners to believe that the windfall of the oil boom would translate into lasting economic benefit. You don't learn to live on the treacherous, windswept plains without a certain common-sense conservatism about such matters seeping into your bones.

(footnote 2)

- - - footnotes follow - - -

Footnote 1: I personally believe a property tax is among the most immoral of taxes--a property tax says that you don't actually own "your" property, you're just renting it from the guv'ment--and if you don't think so, try not paying your property taxes for a few years and see what happens to your "ownership" of said property. Property tax is rent paid to the government, pure and simple. Property taxes say that that the government owns everything, and simply allows you the use of it, as long as you pay. We fought a revolution against such ideas, a while back. Won it, too. IMHO the "fairest" form of taxation would be some form of total-net-worth tax. Unfortunately that kind of tax is among the hardest to implement. It's an inconvenient universe.)

Footnote 2: I now ban myself for an indeterminate period of time for the offense of overtly political talk on this board.

Your forgetting something major, the services that the government provides at the local level ie roads, schools, and fire protection are paid from the rent collected by the government. So being a renter may not be so bad after all. No man is an island, and I know I sound like some kind of a socialist. I do agree that ND would be short sighted in expecting the oil boom to last forever. The property tax abolishment was a brain child of a farm wife named Charlene Nelson, she could not get enough sophisicated folks to agree with her such as former govenrors and those who still carry weight in North Dakota. Thats the major reason Measure 2 went down in flames.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Your forgetting something major, the services that the government provides at the local level ie roads, schools, and fire protection are paid from the rent collected by the government. So being a renter may not be so bad after all. No man is an island, and I know I sound like some kind of a socialist. I do agree that ND would be short sighted in expecting the oil boom to last forever. The property tax abolishment was a brain child of a farm wife named Charlene Nelson, she could not get enough sophisicated folks to agree with her such as former govenrors and those who still carry weight in North Dakota. Thats the major reason Measure 2 went down in flames.

I SOOOOO want to respond to this, but I've banned myself.

Damn.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I SOOOOO want to respond to this, but I've banned myself.

Damn.

Likewise I will not respond, except to state, that ND has more interesting election day then SD for a primary and set a record for turnout, a turnout of 35 %. Now life after the logo. Here is the latest from GF paper.

http://mobile.grandforksherald.com/p...icle/id/238757

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Your forgetting something major, the services that the government provides at the local level ie roads, schools, and fire protection are paid from the rent collected by the government. So being a renter may not be so bad after all. No man is an island, and I know I sound like some kind of a socialist. I do agree that ND would be short sighted in expecting the oil boom to last forever. The property tax abolishment was a brain child of a farm wife named Charlene Nelson, she could not get enough sophisicated folks to agree with her such as former govenrors and those who still carry weight in North Dakota. Thats the major reason Measure 2 went down in flames.

I'm sure I'll step in it, but here goes anyway. To be fair, Filbert wasn't saying he was opposed to paying taxes (and receiving the benefits of roads, schools, and fire protection). He has a philosophical beef with property taxes in particular, not taxes in general. Hopefully that isn't too political.

BTW, its hard to have the word "legislature" in a thread title and not expect political discourse.

Back to the thread topic, sort of.

To play devil's advocate, is it really short sighted to abolish the property tax if it isn't needed? They could always re-instate it later. In my limited knowledge and experience, governments seem to spend whatever resources are available (not saying that's wrong - especially if they spend it on roads, schools, and fire protection), so they are likely to have problems after the oil boom anyway. Except there will be no alternative sources of revenue to replace it (like re-instating property taxes).

Thoughts?

[KUlawJack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I'm sure I'll step in it, but here goes anyway. To be fair, Filbert wasn't saying he was opposed to paying taxes (and receiving the benefits of roads, schools, and fire protection). He has a philosophical beef with property taxes in particular, not taxes in general. Hopefully that isn't too political.

BTW, its hard to have the word "legislature" in a thread title and not expect political discourse.

Back to the thread topic, sort of.

To play devil's advocate, is it really short sighted to abolish the property tax if it isn't needed? They could always re-instate it later. In my limited knowledge and experience, governments seem to spend whatever resources are available (not saying that's wrong - especially if they spend it on roads, schools, and fire protection), so they are likely to have problems after the oil boom anyway. Except there will be no alternative sources of revenue to replace it (like re-instating property taxes).

Thoughts?

While ND could have abolished its property tax and used the oil revenue to replace at least some of that lost revenue, one could foresee a looming storm on the horizon if the oil dried up. Say one generation lives free and clear of property taxes before the oil dries up. The ND legislature decides to implement a property tax after 40 years without one, a shock to the electoral body. Such a bill would be ripe for an referendum and one would think ND citizens, who are most likely as conservative as South Dakotans, in general, would reject such a proposal. Just my initial thought at the idea.

In full disclosure, I have not followed the Measure closely, so take what I say, like almost everything I say, with a grain of salt.

[jackrabit1]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I just chewed out the folks at SDSportsTalk.com for bringing in Politics into a thread. Do I REALLY need to do that here?!?!

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

While ND could have abolished its property tax and used the oil revenue to replace at least some of that lost revenue, one could foresee a looming storm on the horizon if the oil dried up. Say one generation lives free and clear of property taxes before the oil dries up. The ND legislature decides to implement a property tax after 40 years without one, a shock to the electoral body. Such a bill would be ripe for an referendum and one would think ND citizens, who are most likely as conservative as South Dakotans, in general, would reject such a proposal. Just my initial thought at the idea.

In full disclosure, I have not followed the Measure closely, so take what I say, like almost everything I say, with a grain of salt.

I don't know much about the measure either, but I think we are arguing two sides of the same coin. Difficult decisions likely lay on the distant horizon, the argument comes with how to prepare for those decisions.

Here's a question someone with more knowledge could answer. Have property valuations gone up dramatically in western ND due to oil discoveries? If oil money gets into state coffers via property taxes, I could understand why a farmer (or farmer's wife) might have an ax to grind.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I just chewed out the folks at SDSportsTalk.com for bringing in Politics into a thread. Do I REALLY need to do that here?!?!

You can if you want to, but like I said earlier the word "legislature" is in the thread title. Kind of hard to avoid political talk. Granted, we have gotten a bit off topic from the Sioux nickname. I'll quit now.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I just chewed out the folks at SDSportsTalk.com for bringing in Politics into a thread. Do I REALLY need to do that here?!?!

Why do you think I banned myself?

Oops. Back I go sit in the Naughty Chair.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Why do you think I banned myself?

Oops. Back I go sit in the Naughty Chair.

I blame filbert and ignorance for my thread drift. Well, mostly filbert. But that is just my ignorance talking.

[goon]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I blame filbert and ignorance for my thread drift. Well, mostly filbert. But that is just my ignorance talking.

I would actually like to hear filberts thoughts. But at the same time, mods doing a good job and most of us having some form of self control and keep this site pretty family friendly. unlike egriz site. Anyway. I didnt really pay attention, whats the next step for the nickname retirement?

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I would actually like to hear filberts thoughts. But at the same time, mods doing a good job and most of us having some form of self control and keep this site pretty family friendly. unlike egriz site. Anyway. I didnt really pay attention, whats the next step for the nickname retirement?

The ND State Board of Higher Education needs to direct UND to retire the name. They did that yesterday. UND will now start the process on their end. They're getting pretty good at it since this is the third time they've had to start the process. With the exception of the hockey and basketball/volleyball arena, the work should be done by the start of school. The arenas are private property on state land, so that will be interesting. If the arena management chooses to not remove the logos, there's not a lot UND can do about it. Since there's no way the Ralph(hockey) or the Betty(basketball/volleyball) will be hosting NCAA tournaments in men's hockey, MBB, WBB or VB, the only thing to be worried about is women's hockey. If push came to shove, UND could host a women's tourney game in Fargo at the Scheels Arena.