Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

I know you believe this to be true, but it doesn't matter how many times you say it, the facts don't back you up.  Again I provided a story that shows UMKC (a low major) has regularly played Big XII school at home.   A Bison fan points out that they have a 2 for 1 with Kansas State and here are some addtional examples from this season.

Missouri at Davidson - Dec. 7th
Kansas State at Northern Ill. - Dec. 20th
Oklahoma State at Pepperdine - Jan. 3rd
Texas A&M at Tulane - Nov. 26
Michigan at Boston U (not Boston College) - Nov. 22
Northwestern at Lehigh - Nov. 13
Northwestern at Charlotte - Nov. 14
Notre Dame at IPFW - Dec. 18
Stanford at UC-Davis - Dec. 4
Ohio State at St. Jospeh's - Dec. 10
Vanderbuilt at Dayton - Dec. 30
Georgia at Old Dominion - Nov. 18
Georgia at Fordham - Nov. 20
Georgia at E. Kentucky - Nov. 21
Kentucky at Georgia St. - Dec. 6
Mississippi St. at Charlotte - Nov. 23
Mississippi St. at Liberty - Dec. 19
Mississippi at Southern Utah - Nov. 18
Mississippi at South Carolina State - Nov. 20
UCLA at Drexel - Nov. 25
USC at Oral Roberts - Nov. 23
Cal at Eastern Michigan - Nov. 18
Stanford at Montana - Dec. 2
UConn at Pepperdine - Nov. 18
Pittsburgh at Duquesne - Dec. 12
Villanova at Bucknell - Dec. 6
Rutgers at St. Mary's - Dec. 3
Rutgers at Buffalo - Dec. 12
Syracuse at Towson - Dec. 27
West Virgina at St. Bonaventure - Nov 30
South Florida at Stetson - Dec. 6
DuPaul at Old Dominion - Dec. 17
Providence at Fairfield - Nov. 28

Should I go on?  It isn't easy for a low major to  get a high major to come to their place but it does happen all the time, and will happen for SDSU.


Go State!  ;D

Many of the schools on this list are Mid Majors in fact Dayton, Duquesne (which is located in Pittsburgh big surprise that Pitt is playing them), St. Joe's and Charlotte are in the Atlantic 10 considered by most to be a High Major league.  Tulane is in Conference USA again a fringe High Major League.

Drexel vs. UCLA was in the Preseason NIT held at Madison Square Garden.......they won their way to that game.


Missouri at Davidson - Dec. 7th -- Davidson is an established NCAA tournament team hardly considered a small DI even if they are the smallest DI school.
Kansas State at Northern Ill. - Kansas State plays many non-conference games on the road and UNI is a mid major.
Oklahoma State at Pepperdine - Pepperdine is a mid major
UConn at Pepperdine - Nov. 18 - See above
Texas A&M at Tulane - Tulane is in Conference USA a High Major league

All home teams are Atlantic 10 Teams You wouldn't consider Xavier or Temple Small DI's????
Northwestern at Charlotte - Nov. 14
Ohio State at St. Jospeh's - Dec. 10
Vanderbuilt at Dayton - Dec. 30
Mississippi St. at Charlotte - Nov. 23
Pittsburgh at Duquesne - Dec. 12
West Virgina at St. Bonaventure - Nov 30

Schools located in same state
Notre Dame at IPFW - Dec. 18
Stanford at UC-Davis - Dec. 4
South Florida at Stetson - Dec. 6 - South Florida just joined the Big East and Stetson is located in Florida

Strong Mid Major teams
Georgia at Old Dominion - Nov. 18
DuPaul at Old Dominion - Dec. 17
Georgia at Fordham - Nov. 20
Georgia at E. Kentucky - Nov. 21


Mississippi St. at Liberty - Dec. 19
UCLA at Drexel - Nov. 25
USC at Oral Roberts - Nov. 23
Cal at Eastern Michigan - Nov. 18



Villanova at Bucknell - Dec. 6 - Bucknell is an Ivy League school considered a mid major league.

Rutgers at St. Mary's - Dec. 3 - St. Mary's is in same conference as Gonzaga and was a tournament team last year.  Hardly a small DI league.




These teams could be considered small DI's
Stanford at Montana - Dec. 2
Providence at Fairfield - Nov. 28
Michigan at Boston U (not Boston College) - Nov. 22
Northwestern at Lehigh - Nov. 13
Kentucky at Georgia St. - Dec. 6
Rutgers at Buffalo - Dec. 12
Syracuse at Towson - Dec. 27
Mississippi at Southern Utah - Nov. 18
Mississippi at South Carolina State - Nov. 20

When a High Major other than a border state or a school with a former SD HS player or some connection to the current coaching staff plays the men's team you can say "I told you so". Until then the only teams coming to Frost or Sioux Falls to play the Jacks will be small to mid major teams.

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Kansas State signed at 2 for 1 with NDSU. I don't think there is any NDSU connections to K-State, so I wouldn't say major conference teams would never travel to SDSU. As for a DI NCC, I just don't think NDSU has any interest in it right now. Having to wait until the 2020's to have an auto-bid is just too long a wait and the conference would be picked apart by schools leaving to join auto-bid conferences. The only regional schools that I ever see going DI are UND and UNO and it may be a stretch for those schools. I think NDSU and SDSU will be in a conference before a DI NCC ever gets a chance to get going.

Not surprised. Kansas State has been dismal the past four or five years. Their head coach is on the hot seat and needs to win desperately. He most likely will be fired by the end of the season. If that happens the new coach may not be thrilled with the deicision to play NDSU at their place.

[89rabbit]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Cadsev,

Splitting hairs a little aren't you? :

If your point is that SDSU has not had a school from a Major Conference play the Jackrabbit Men's Basketball team at Frost Arena this season or last then you are correct.

If your point is that SDSU can not get a home game with a school from a Major Conference then you are off the mark and I and others have posted evidnence to support that. Evidence from sources that you yourself suggested.

Take a look at the schedules of the teams in the power conferences for confirmation.

Your unwillingness to except that facts as they are, suggestes that you have other issues that the rest of us are not privy to. The list I provided wasn't intended to be all encompassing, and if you would like I can certainly list more (it could be fun to see how you spin them), but I don't think we need any further evidence to conclude that in fact Major Conference teams do play Low Major teams at the Low Major's home courts.


Go State! ;D


P.S. Bucknell is part of the Patriot League, not the Ivy League. The other "Basketball Powers" in that league include -- Army, Navy, Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and American.

[89rabbit]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Not surprised.  Kansas State has been dismal the past four or five years.  Their head coach is on the hot seat and needs to win desperately.  He most likely will be fired by the end of the season.  If that happens the new coach may not be thrilled with the deicision to play NDSU at their place.  

Wait didn't you tell us this?

Having success in the NCAA tournament one or two years does not annoint you as a High Major program.

Shouldn't I assume that the reverse is true that one can not be excommunicated from High Major status based on proformance?

It seems to me that you are willing to put yourself thgough all kinds of intellectual gymnastics just to try and prove some point that SDSU’s and NDSU’s ability to form a quality schedule is an impossible task. Stop before you hurt yourself.



Go State! ;D

[ballz]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Wait didn't you tell us this?



Shouldn't I assume that the reverse is true that one can not be excommunicated from High Major status based on proformance?

It seems to me that you are willing to put yourself thgough all kinds of intellectual gymnastics just to try and prove some point that SDSU’s and NDSU’s ability to form a quality schedule is an impossible task. Stop before you hurt yourself.



Go State! ;D

I have to agree with cadsev here. If it was possible for us to be getting games with high major teams, I think you would see some evidence of it on our schedule. Signing a four for nothing deal with minnesota definitely doesn't show a lot of promise for the coaches getting them into frost any time soon. Same thing with Marquette, Illinois, etc., all games that have no return trips to SDSU.

Also, I heard about the Kansas state game for NDSU that President Chapman of NDSU gave them some deal with the veterinary school or something like that, and the Kansas State President gave them a basketball game as a return favor. Not at all positive about that, just what I heard.

Cadsev, I've also got to thank you for your posts on this board. I can tell you actually know what your talking about, and you should keep posting here even if the responses you get are rediculous or insulting to you (Not insinuating that anybody's posts have been rediculous or insulting). Theres a lot of people that appreciate the information you have to offer that don't necessarily post on the board.

[ballz]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Cadsev,

Splitting hairs a little aren't you? :

If your point is that SDSU has not had a school from a Major Conference play the Jackrabbit Men's Basketball team at Frost Arena this season or last then you are correct.

If your point is that SDSU can not get a home game with a school from a Major Conference then you are off the mark and I and others have posted evidnence to support that. Evidence from sources that you yourself suggested.


Your unwillingness to except that facts as they are, suggestes that you have other issues that the rest of us are not privy to. The list I provided wasn't intended to be all encompassing, and if you would like I can certainly list more (it could be fun to see how you spin them), but I don't think we need any further evidence to conclude that in fact Major Conference teams do play Low Major teams at the Low Major's home courts.


Go State! ;D


P.S. Bucknell is part of the Patriot League, not the Ivy League. The other "Basketball Powers" in that league include -- Army, Navy, Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, and American.

89-

I don't really know what your argument even is anymore, other than finding the smallest errors in cadsev's posts and pointing them out, as if that will change reality. I don't know what you could even argue about.

Look at our scedule. Do you see any games home games against major schools? Do you see any aways games against major schools that are 2-1, 3-1, or even 4-1 deals? No? Then right now Cadsev is correct.

In the future is there a chance for a home game against a major school? Absolutely, and there's the chance that SDSU will land the next Dwayne Wade and go to the final four its first year of eligibility. Does that mean its likely? Unfortunately, no. Right now our schedule would suggest that SDSU is not going to be able to pull in one of these games, because right now SDSU has nothing to offer these schools in terms on money. In the future that very well may change, but it will be so far into the future that its idiotic to sit on a message board and argue about it. I respect that your very passonate about SDSU, but at some point you need to have some realism about where we are in D-I.

If you don't think any of this information is correct, I suggest you e-mail Coach Nagy or Coach Larson about the schedule and ask them about getting a major team into Frost arena in the next couple of years and read their response.

[Texas_Jacks_Fan]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

This is SDSU's first year even counting toward RPI. Geeez... Some of you need to be somewhat realistic when it comes to scheduling. We will get some big time schools to Frost... Give it a few years!!!
It's obvious that not all posters are fans of SDSU and enjoy taking shots and minimalizing the D1 move.

These things take time, getting majors to Frost AND finding a confrence. I think most SDSU supporters understand this and our opponents wont get it no matter what is said or done.

If it takes 3-5 years to move to a more ammicable scheduling situation then thats what it will take. Maybe it will be 5-7. whatever it is its better than playing the same old tired ncc teams!!

[89rabbit]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

89-

I don't really know what your argument even is anymore, other than finding the smallest errors in cadsev's posts and pointing them out, as if that will change reality.  I don't know what you could even argue about.

Let me see if I can help.

Cadsev wrote:  

Oh and I'll state this again.........High Majors don't play low - Mid major DI's on the road unless there is a connection (such as in state or former assistant coach etc.).  

He is factually wrong on that point.  I went on to post that:

Cadsev,


If your point is that SDSU has not had a school from a Major Conference play the Jackrabbit Men's Basketball team at Frost Arena this season or last then you are correct.  

If your point is that SDSU can not get a home game with a school from a Major Conference then you are off the mark and I and others have posted evidnence to support that.  Evidence from sources that you yourself suggested.

So here is my point in a nutshell.  We have not played a "Major" school in Men's Basketball at Frost Arena yet.  This is not a surprise as this is our FIRST season as a D-I RPI Counter.  History and facts indicate that SDSU will be able to attract such teams in the future.  That is it.  Simple enough I think.

By the way is Conference USA a major confernce (rhetorical question, the answer is yes)?  If so we will have Central Florida at Frost Arena.  This year is the 2nd game of a 2 for 1 deal with the Knights and the last game of the deal is to be played in Frost Arena.    So be patient.  It really isn't fair to judge the success of our move to D-I this early in the game.  Good things are coming.


Go State!  ;D  


P.S. As far as realism goes, I am thrilled to death that we were able to get teams the caliber of Butler, Cal State Fullerton, UW-Milwaukee and other to come to our place in our first full season as a D-I school.  I think our Coaching staff has done an excellent job.  I know we will have schools from Major Conferences visit us in the future.  I know it won't be easy to make that happen (and I posted so, earlier in this thread).  I also know that Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina , and Texas are never coming to Frost, but that is ok because there are plenty of Major conference foes that will.  If in the future (like now) we have to do a 2 for 1 to get Kansas State or Central Florida here that is ok, because it is better then having Pan Handle State, Finlanda, York, and the like come to Brookings, IMHO.

[Jacks-D1]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Cadsev, you have made many very realistic points on this thread, and seem to know a great deal about the conference subject and move to DI in general. I appreciate your posts and enjoyed reading them.

[cal_jack]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Patience is the key.  Once we get into a conference and once we start winning against mid majors we will become a mid major.  Once we are a mid major then we will get shots at majors coming into Frost Arena.  It will still take 2 for 1's and 3 for 1's.

You have to remember that the majors don't have a lot to gain coming into Frost.  First, at this point in time they can make a whole lot more money at their own home.  Second, God forbid, we beat them in our home.

I am a season ticket holder for University of San Francisco and it tough for USF to get the likes of Stanford and other Pac10 schools into our place.  Cal Berkerely won't even schedule us any more cause we have beat them too many times.

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Here are some schools that would be a good comparision to SDSU's situtation. Instead of bringing up established small D1 or mid major schedules. These are schools that have recently made the jump to D1:

Texas A & M Corpus Christie: http://www.goislanders.com/schedule.cfm?sp=BSKM

David Lipscomb: http://lipscombsports.collegesports....kbl-sched.html

Oh and as you can read below (I know I referred to C-USA as a Major conference) C-USA is loosing their Major tag due to realignment......not that I'd be doing cartwheels over UCF anyways.

Conference USA effectively lost its "major" status in July 2005 when 8 of its 14 basketball members left for other conferences, five to the Big East alone. Of the schools that left C-USA, three that left for the Big East (Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette) were responsible for all of the national championships won by schools that were C-USA members in 2004-05. Louisville made the Final Four in its last season in C-USA. Two other departing schools (DePaul, which joined the Big East, and Charlotte, which joined the A-10) have past Final Four appearances, though not recently (1979 for DePaul, 1977 for Charlotte). The Mountain West and Atlantic 10, which also gained members from Conference USA, are more secure in their "major" status at this time.

The following are considered mid-major conferences in college basketball:

America East Conference
Atlantic Sun Conference
Big Sky Conference
Big South Conference
Big West Conference
Colonial Athletic Association
Conference USA
Horizon League
Ivy League
Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference
Mid-American Conference
Mid-Continent Conference
Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference
Missouri Valley Conference
Northeast Conference
Ohio Valley Conference
Patriot League
Southern Conference
Southland Conference
Southwestern Athletic Conference
Sun Belt Conference
West Coast Conference

In recent years, Gonzaga has become the closest thing to a power in mid-major basketball, having made it as far as the quarterfinals in 1999 and in the years since ranking highly in the influential AP Top 25 Poll and the Ratings Percentage Index throughout the basketball season. Increasingly, basketball analysts are considering Gonzaga to be a major program that happens to play in a mid-major conference.

Finally, a small number of teams (currently ten) compete in Division I basketball as so-called "Independents", without belonging to any conference. Typically, these teams have just moved up to Division I from a lower division, and compete independently while hoping to eventually secure a spot in a conference. Unlike in football, they are generally among the least-competitive teams in college basketball.

Information found at:

http://ncaa-basketball.helpdesk-stat...asketball.html

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

While I do agree that Cadsev makes some valid points, he seems to take a negative view on almost every issue. I do appreciate his posts and enjoy reading them. Keep it up.

I will say it is a lot easier to predict something can’t happen than to actually do something to make it happen. People in all areas of life seem more intelligent if they are negative about an issue. But it is the positive thinkers who actually push organizations forward to change. Those who say a thing can’t be done are constantly proved wrong by the people who are doing it.

A few examples:

-SDSU will be hiring a new president. Which is better, someone who pushes State to bigger and better things, or someone who shoots down every idea by saying it can't be done?

-People have said State will never get a new wellness center. The Student body disagreed, and they are making it happen.

-Many people thought State should have stayed DII. A lot of people said SDSU could not go Division I. People with vision worked hard and we are now competing on a Division I level and experiencing the ups and downs that go along with it.

-A lot of people say SDSU will not find a conference. Many think we can, and each day brings us closer to that goal.

-Many say (and hope) SDSU will never have success at this level. Many others think we can and are working in recruiting to make sure we do. We have already had some measure of success considering this is only our second year.

-Some say it is impossible to play top level teams in Frost. Many people think we can and are working toward better schedules. (If they aren’t we should hire new people). If SDSU has success, alumni from Nebraska and Minnesota will want games with us, and we in turn can get home games from them. Manhatten (Sioux Falls), Denver, and Cal State Fullerton came this year alone. And they are picked to win or finish in the top of their conference, I think. Many basketball “experts” have put these teams in the tournament.

Now, on to the actual subject of the thread. I think Hoops for the Troops would work (in Rapid, not Frost. Not sure how Frost got put into this discussion). RC is a neutral site in one of the most pristine areas in the country. 5 national parks, Mount Rushmore, and Crazy Horse Monument draw people year round. Throw in a basketball tournament for a good cause, and I think fan turnout and TV exposure would be there—maybe even bigger than Maui or Anchorage. I don’t see how any of the other pre-season sites are better than Rapid City, other than maybe climate. From what I can see, teams don't play in pre-season tourneys for gauranteed wins-did you catch Gonzaga/MSU this year? And that was a semi final if I'm not mistaken.

It would be interesting to see a school turn down an invitation to a tournament which benefits the troops serving this country. With troop support at an all time high, alumni would be outraged, and it might even cause a media stir. How would Coach K look on O'Reilly Factor explaining why he (a West Point Grad) turned down an opportunity to support the troops?

According to some, I guess we should just stay DI and hope the NCC moves up so we can compete at a mediocre level. Many seem to be sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for a chance to say “I told you so” regarding the DI move. It looks like we made the right decision based on what is happening in the NCC.

It might be a bit of a stretch to think about playing teams like Kentucky, Illinois, and Marquette in Frost. 10 years ago it was a stretch to say we would play these teams at all.

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Sorry I'll try to be more positive. I'm not trying to be negative but people need to understand the difference between the levels of DI basketball. I agree that down the road SDSU might be able to lure some High Major school into Frost.......Not to bust "89'er but I'd rather see them play Florida Atlantic at home than UCF. It would be much more fun to watch Matt Doherty pacing the sidelines. But I digress again.

Anyways don't get the wrong impression in my postings. I'll let the issue die and I couldn't be happier that SDSU is DI. It gives SD's top athlete a chance to play at a level not afforded them in the past. I doubt more than one athlete per class would be on the squad (scholarship) as it's not realistic.

I know the coaching staff has been aggressive and has offered some SD underclassmen. The tide will change and they will land the top in state athletes down the road.

Still there will be some in our state that won't understand why Johnny from Athol (pardon me if you are from Athol) wasn't offered by state as he pumped in 20 a night against Eureka. Much the same way that people thought that Joe Krabbenhoft was "overrated", hyped up bad SD HS athlete. It's a learning process and people will adapt as will the SDSU Men's program.

I'll climb down off the podium now.....I feel that I've ruffled enough feathers.

[Jacks02]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

I'll climb down off the podium now.....I feel that I've ruffled enough feathers.

I hope you don't feel like you can't post your opinions here. This is a public message board, that is the whole reason for this forum IMO. This wouldn't be a very entertaining discussion if everyone who posted was an SDSU homer with their heads in the clouds. We always need some levity from time to time, and I think you have done a great job at bringing that to the table. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable of South Dakota High School and national collegiate athletics, which I myself enjoy hearing from. I'm not saying I agree with everything you've said, but this wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone agreed

[Jacks02]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Just to add my thoughts. I know we haven't had a team from a major conference for men's basketball in Frost yet, but lets take a look at who we have or will be able to see in Brookings/SF in our second year of Division I athletics.

Cal Poly (DIAA Playoff Qualifier) in football
Georgia Southern (DIAA Playoff Qualifier) in football
Cal-State Fullerton (NIT Qualifier) in men's basketball
Wisconsin-Milwaukee (Sweet 16 Qualifier) in men's basketball
Denver (NIT Qualifier) in men's basketball
Manhattan (NCAA Qualifier in 2004) in men's basketball
Butler in men's basketball
Middle Tenn State (NCAA Qualifier) in women's basketball
Alabama (Major Conference team) in women's basketball
North Carolina St. wrestling

For being a 2nd year transition team that is in its first year as an RPI counter for basketball, I think we have made tremendous progress. I'm happy with the way things are going and I think the future is very bright. If our biggest worry about the program is whether or not we are able to get a top 25 team into Frost Arena for a basketball game, I think our energy is misguided. I'd much rather be spending money on fully funding all our athletic scholarship budgets rather then on paying a guarantee to a top team to get them to play here.