Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Gentlemen..........there is a difference between a Sweet 16 team and a High major team.  Having success in the NCAA tournament one or two years does not annoint you as a High Major program.  Gonzaga, considered by many to be the best mid major program in the US is still a mid major despite having success all these years.  Creighton is still a mid major as well.  Some would argue that Gonzaga is creaping into the high major category but their conference that they play in does not support that tag.

Manhatten was good a few years ago.  This season they are struggling (3-4 record). You can't label them a high major due to success one year.  The bottom line is the programs mentioned, Manhatten, UW Milwaukee and others also have trouble getting the top high major programs to play them at home.  In order to get quality home games they schedule teams such as NSDSU and SDSU on 1 for 1 contracts.  Before anyone argues that U of Wisconsin (Madison) plays UW Milwaukee each year please remember that it's an in state riveraly game.  Washington also plays Gonzaga as well as Nebraska plays Creighton.  

Ask Coach Larson (who does the scheduling)why they aren't attracting top high majors to Frost and he'll smile at you and say there is no way they could get that done.  Those games will always be played on the road.  No matter how good SDSU is in the future (10 - 20 years down the road), they won't ever be considered anything but a small D1 to mid major D1.  Having success as one of those teams only makes it much more difficult to attract High Major schools to your gym.  Gonzaga has been solid the past 10 years.  This season they have a few teams from High Major conferences that play them in Spokane.  Most High Major games are being play on a neutral site, such as Seattle.  UW Milwaukee didn't have one single game at home against a High Major school and they were in the Sweet 16 last year.

A better comparison to a future SDSU schedule is Montana State or Montana.  Montana played one team out of a high major conference (Stanford) at their place this season.  That might be an ongoing contract between the two schools or a three year contract where Montana played twice in Palo Alto and once at home.

It would be more realistic to try to get a tournament put together with teams such as Montana or Montana State, NDSU, Colorado State, Wyoming, Creighton (but doubt they would consider), Drake and call it something like the Border State tournament.


Again, the idea is nice but the teams that would participate would be in the low to mid major range.  It was stated early in this thread that top teams around the country would be attracted to such an event.  I'm pointing out that it most likely would not happen.  

If other NCC Schools go DI (as has been discussed in recent months such as UND, USD, St. Cloud, Mankato and possibly Augie or Omaha) and the NCC conference ends up a DI conference with NDSU and SDSU as participants the conference would be on the same level as the Big Sky. It would be great for all schools as the rivalry games would be back, travel expenses would be cut down and SDSU wouldn't have to kill themselves playing "moral victory" guaranteed games against High Major schools on the road. Frost would be packed again and SDSU would have success against opponents at their level where they could compete. Maybe eventually down the road the conferece would get an automatic bid into the tournament and then anything could happen. Still the conference representative may be nothing more than a 16 seed or play in game participant but they'd have to start somewhere. Gonzaga made a name for themselves because they played solid in the tournament and made the final 8 or 16 a few years in a row. A conference is critical for the success of SDSU and not just any conference. One where they can compete and have success and generate fan support. A New DI NCC would give them that opportunity. This however is discussion for another thread.

[Jacks02]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Well said Cadsev, and I think thats a pretty accurate assessment of our situation.

[89rabbit]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Here are highlights from a Kansas City Star story that speaks to the difficulties that Mid-Majors have getting home games.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...s/13427424.htm

Shockers are getting UMKC’s attention

By DAVID BOYCE
The Kansas City Star

Quinton Day and Tim Blackwell didn’t come close to slipping into the charade that all games carry equal weight.

They freely admitted that when they take the court for UMKC at 7 tonight at Municipal Auditorium, they will have an extra bounce in their step and be a little more pumped up for Wichita State.

Hey, this isn’t Longwood, the Kangaroos’ last home opponent, which had some longtime UMKC fans scratching their heads about the location of the school in Farmville, Va.

Most basketball fans in the Kansas City area know where Wichita State is and that the Shockers play in the Missouri Valley Conference.

“It’s something you look forward to,” Day said of playing the Shockers. “They are a team that you respect and a team you want to go out and beat.”

Through the ’90s, UMKC played at least one Big Eight/Big 12 school or a Missouri Valley school at Municipal Auditorium and many times had two games like that on the schedule.

“I love to see us play more games like this because it fills up Municipal, and we want to see all those people,” Blackwell said. “When you bring in big teams like this, that’s what it does.”

Municipal certainly had a carnival atmosphere Dec. 19, 2001, when Oklahoma State, ranked in the top 10 at the time, played UMKC, which was 6-1.

Outside the auditorium, there were even ticket scalpers, and the 8,643 fans that showed up — the second-largest home crowd in UMKC history — created a big-game setting.

But in recent years those home games are harder to come by for programs like UMKC because of money, Kangaroos coach Rich Zvosec said.

“Schools in the Missouri Valley and the Big 12 are looking for home games to produce revenue,” Zvosec said. “When a school in the Missouri Valley can pay $40,000 to $45,000 for a home game, they are able to attract more teams to come play. Money has changed everything.”

Wichita State coach Mark Turgeon has complained in the past that it is hard for his program to get home-and-home series with teams from major conferences.

It’s even harder for UMKC, which draws between 2,000 and 4,000 fans, to get midmajor programs like Wichita State to come to Municipal for a game against UMKC.
The contract UMKC has with Wichita State is two for one, which means the Kangaroos will play the Shockers twice in Wichita for one date in Kansas City.

If you have too many two-for-one deals, a team like UMKC ends up playing the bulk of its nonconference games on the road.

“It’s nearly impossible to get somebody to play you strictly home and home,” Zvosec said. “All the Big 12 will do, if they come back, is a two-for-one. It’s even getting to that point in the Missouri Valley.”

Unless the NCAA changes its rules and forces teams to play a certain number of nonconference road games, UMKC home games against schools like Wichita State will be a rare treat.

“We are trying to attract as many good home games as we can,” Zvosec said.

For the Kangaroos, tonight’s game marks another opportunity to show people they can play well and get a victory against a bigger school. . . .

To do that, Day and Blackwell agreed, the Kangaroos will have to rebound much better. In their last game, a 72-65 loss at South Dakota State, UMKC had 15 fewer rebounds than the Jackrabbits.

“We’ve got to rebound,” Blackwell said. “We’ve got to find bodies to hit.”

It won’t be easy for the Kangaroos. They have to contend with Wichita State’s 6-foot-10 senior center Paul Miller and 6-8 junior forward Kyle Wilson, who are far more polished post players than anyone on Missouri.
“This is a good test for us as we head into league,” Zvosec said.


Go State! ;D

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

If other NCC Schools go DI (as has been discussed in recent months such as UND, USD, St. Cloud, Mankato and possibly Augie or Omaha) and the NCC conference ends up a DI conference with NDSU and SDSU as participants the conference would be on the same level as the Big Sky.  It would be great for all schools as the rivalry games would be back, travel expenses would be cut down and SDSU wouldn't have to kill themselves playing "moral victory" guaranteed games against High Major schools on the road.  Frost would be packed again and SDSU would have success against opponents at their level where they could compete.  Maybe eventually down the road the conferece would get an automatic bid into the tournament and then anything could happen.  Still the conference representative may be nothing more than a 16 seed or play in game participant but they'd have to start somewhere.  Gonzaga made a name for themselves because they played solid in the tournament and made the final 8 or 16 a few years in a row.  A conference is critical for the success of SDSU and not just any conference.  One where they can compete and have success and generate fan support.  A New DI NCC would give them that opportunity.  This however is discussion for another thread.

You have forgotten one thing here with a D1 NCC, its called an autobid, which takes 13 years to obtain under current D1 rules.

With SDSU and NDSU 2 years in transition and the other NCC still thinking maybe we will go D1, I think we would be fools to join a D1 NCC, especially since these people had their chance to vote for this before SDSU and NDSU left the NCC.
No way jose

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

You have forgotten one thing here with a D1 NCC, its called an autobid, which takes 13 years to obtain under current D1 rules.

With SDSU and NDSU 2 years in transition and the other NCC still thinking maybe we will go D1, I think we would be fools to join a D1 NCC, especially since these people had their chance to vote for this before SDSU and NDSU left the NCC.
No way jose

Even if SDSU was to get into a conference they may have a number of years before the conference allows them to participate in the post season tournament.  Having a solid conference with schools right in your back yard makes more sense than to seek out a national conference with no identity, no established rivals and certainly very little chance of making the NCAA touranment.  What's two years more.....not very long in the big picture.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Even if SDSU was to get into a conference they may have a number of years before the conference allows them to participate in the post season tournament.  Having a solid conference with schools right in your back yard makes more sense than to seek out a national conference with no identity, no established rivals and certainly very little chance of making the NCAA touranment.  What's two years more.....not very long in the big picture.  

Where were you when SDSU and NDSU proposed that the NCC move to D1 in mass? You seem to think its the greatest idea since slice bread. Too bad you were not at the NCC spring meeting to convince the schools who voted against this great plan, namely the NCC, D1 conference.

I think SDSU and NDSU will do just fine with out the D1 NCC.

[filbert]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

I have little to quibble about in Cadsev's last post, except that in my opinion he's just stating the obvious.

The question is how to overcome the obstacles he correctly identifies.

The **only** way any major college program would come to S.D., short of a Gonzaga-like run by SDSU over the next 15 years is to somehow get an exempt tournament up and running. This is an unlikely proposition but what the heck! It would probably be easier to pull off than the Gonzaga Run.

So, there's no harm in trying to figure out how you might make the Rushmore Hoops for the Troops tournament happen.

For amusement and edification, I'd direct the interested reader to section 30.10.1 of the NCAA Division I manual to read up on certified basketball events.
http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_event...ex.html#bylaws


Now, to the question of the NCC going to D-I, I have always thought that the NCC should have moved up at the same time that the Big Sky did, in the '70's.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda.

If the NCC decides this winter/spring to move as a group to D-I, then SDSU and NDSU would need to seriously consider re-joining the conference and petitioning the NCAA to waive the conference autobid rule, 31.3.4.3 of the D-I Bylaws:

The member conference must include seven core institutions. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition in Division I the preceding five years in men's basketball. There shall be no exception to the five-year-waiting period. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies these requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier.

Note that the 13-year waiting period is the sum of the 5-year reclassification period plus the eight year conference waiting period.

The 5-year period the one where no exceptions will be made. It is possible that you might persuade the NCAA that if the entire NCC moves up (or six of the current seven at least) then the continuity of membership criteria is actually met by the member institutions if they all stay together through the reclassification period. So the 13-year period would get shortened to the 8-year waiting period for continuity-of-conference-membership.

Assuming that you successfully win that argument at the NCAA, next you need to do is convince them to reduce the 8-year conference period. There are a number of equity/fairness arguments you could make for justifying this (i.e. athletes/institutions from ND and SD are now denied participation in the national basketball tournament, and the NCAA already grandfathered in institutions which were D-I as of April 27, 2000, so there's precedent for waiving the rule for certain institutions.

IMHO this would be the more difficult argument to make, but there would be no downside in making the argument.

In the unlikely event that the NCC decided to (finally) move up to D-I, I think NDSU and SDSU would be best served by re-joining the conference and vigorously pursuing a waiver of the eight-year conference rule.

Again, woulda, shoulda, coulda. SDSU and NDSU tried their darndest to convince the rest of the NCC to move up, and did not succeed. If the NCC moves up before NDSU and SDSU achieve all-sports membership in some other conference, I don't think that re-joining a D-I NCC should be dismissed out-of-hand. We might sacrifice a few years of auto-bid, but would gain (re-gain) membership in a renewed, stronger NCC.

p.s. I may be a bit muddled on the 5-year and the 8-year period terminology above, but the fact remains that the door is open (i.e. not totally shut) on getting the 8-year period, or a portion of it, waived. Also, you might be able to make an argument that some or all of the 5-year reclassification period should count against the 5-year period. Whatever, it would be an uphill climb at the NCAA however you spun it.

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

You have forgotten one thing here with a D1 NCC, its called an autobid, which takes 13 years to obtain under current D1 rules.

With SDSU and NDSU 2 years in transition and the other NCC still thinking maybe we will go D1, I think we would be fools to join a D1 NCC, especially since these people had their chance to vote for this before SDSU and NDSU left the NCC.
No way jose

I've been debating this with myself lately (if that makes any sense--any QMHP's around here??)

Here's where I'm at now....If there is a DI NCC, I would hope SDSU and NDSU would join it. Yes, we would have to wait x amount of years for that auto-bid, but I think it would be worth it in the long run. I view it as addition by subtraction.*





*I reserve the right to change my mind at anytime for any reason or no reason whatsoever.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

A number of good points have been made, and maybe I am still a little miffed about the fact that most of the NCC did not buy the  move up in masse presented to them a few years back, and now there are certain NCC members who see the errors of their ways and seem to think they can find a short cut financially of going D1. I still holding out hopes for invitation of membership for SDSU to the Mid Continent Conference. The closer we get to the end of the reclassification, then I think the invitation will come.

[90Jackrabbit]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Some of my thoughts on conference affiliation:

First lets look at what he NCC looked like before all the movement and what a DI NCC could look like:

UNC: gone to the Big Sky and wouldn't come back to a DI NCC.
Morningside: went NAIA, hey don't knock Morningside they were competitive in basketball.
Augustana: I have a hard time seeing Augie going DI, I think they will go to the Northern Sun if the NCC goes DI.
SCSU and UNO: from what i've read on internet message boards both schools have the enrollment and budget to go DI, but both have hockey which sucks up a good portion of that budget. I have also wondered if the governing bodies in those states would want another state supported school competing against the Huskers and the Gophers?
Mankato: I don't know thier budget or enrollment, they also have hockey and the Gophers to contend with same as SCSU.
UND: formally anounced a study looking into a DI move, I think they move up to keep up with NDSU.
USD: also some talk of moving up to keep up with SDSU. Keep this in mind, last year 6 figure budget deficit, had to cut baseball to remain title 9 compliant, and the state of South Dakota had to kick in substantial money to finish the dome roof. They may have wealthy alumni to help with fund raising, but that takes time and a DI move might be a better long range 10-15 year goal.
Let's also remember when the NCC added CWU and WWU as affiliate members they had to ask the NCAA for a grant ot help with travel costs. You have to question if the remaining NCC has the money to move DI. So at best a DI NCC would look like this: SDSU, NDSU, UND, SCSU, UNO, USD? Mankato very unlikey? so at best a 6 team DI NCC.

Oh, I forgot UMD: no idea what their situation is, so maybe a 7 team NCC?

Right now I favor trying to get into an existing conference with an auto bid, I'll post those reasons later tonight, time to go out and have a few cold ones.

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Duluth would not make the move if the NCC goes DI they would stay DII. Augie already is considering going to DI and it would be a reality if the NCC makes the jump. Their plans most likely would not include football. SDSU and NDSU still would be better served by getting back into the NCC for the reasons I stated earlier. No reason to travel all over the country just to get an automatic bid. I would think the NCAA would consider knocking years off the probationary period for an entire league but who knows with the NCAA. Far be it for them to make a rational decision.

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Where were you when  SDSU and NDSU proposed that the NCC move to D1 in mass? You seem to think its the greatest idea since slice bread. Too bad you were not at the NCC spring meeting to convince the schools who voted against this great plan, namely the NCC, D1 conference.

I think SDSU and NDSU will do just fine with out the D1 NCC.

Do you really enjoy 8 win seasons that much? You must be a glutton for punishment.

[90Jackrabbit]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Some more thoughts on conference affiliation.

Between the Mid Con and the BigSky Conferences I prefer the geography of the Mid Con, playing games mostly in our time zone and to the east vs the mountain and pacific time zones. I also think the level of play in the Mid Con is somewhat higher than the BSC, but that is purely speculation on my part and I could be wrong. I did find something on the BSC website Q&A section that really intrigues me.

Carin Mateko asks Big Sky Conference :

"Can you tell me the history behind the conference tournament being hosted by the conference regular season champion and not held at pre-determined host site like so many other conferences? It seems to me that more fans of the non-champion schools would travel to the conference tournament if they could plan in advance."

Big Sky Conference responds:

"There have been numerous formats utilized in the history of the Big Sky Conference Basketball Championship, from the site being decided by a bid, or the previous year's champion hosting, etc. The reason the member institutions voted to go to what is used now -- a "hot-team host" format -- is to ensure as much as possible that the conference's best team is the one that advances to the NCAA Championship with the Conference's automatic bid. There were cases in the past where the host institution was the school that submitted the highest bid, but its team might not be one of the best in the conference and due to home court advantage came out as the winner of the tournament. That team would then advance to the NCAAs, where it would of course be given the 16th seed and would have no chance of success. In the scenario of awarding the tournament to the previous season's champion, there were times when the host school wasn't one of the six that qualified for the tournament and attendance was adversely affected (Big Sky members are that not every institution make the tournament). The Big Sky Conference athletic administrators then decided that since the league will more years than not get just one team into the NCAA Tournament field of 65 (its automatic bid), the most logical avenue for advancing the best team and garnering a seed that could provide a better chance for a win would be the current format. In addition, with the current situation where the two teams with the lowest RPIs that qualify for the NCAAs meet in the "play-in" game, the current format helps to avoid that as well. "

So lets move forward a couple of years and say the BSC decides to expand to 12 teams taking SDSU, NDSU, and UND. Now the Jacks need to do some work in recruiting and raising their level of play, but lets assume they are successful in both areas and rise to the top of the BSC. Playing for a regular season conference title could also mean hosting the BSC conference tourney in Frost Arena with the grand prize being a ticket to the big dance! The atmosphere in Frost would be electric! IMO this would be as big if not bigger than the DII regionals the Jacks hosted in the past. Also the regular season conference games would carry a little more weight and significance with hosting the conference tourney on the line. ESPN II carried the BSC fianls last year, not sure about the semi finals, but imagine that a game from Frost Arena being nationally televised, you won't see that with a DI NCC. I realize to some degree this may be pie-in-the-sky thinking, but IMO in the long run the upside potential for SDSU is greater in an established DI conference. Yes there would be some short term advantages in renewing former rivalries in a DI NCC, but the wait for tournament eligibility is to long. Not to mention with only 6 7 or 8 members in a DI NCC if a couple of schools get better offers from another conference and we drop below 6 members we are back to where we are today. The tough part is getting an invite to an existing DI conference.

And I haven't even discussed the posibilities for the women's team. Thats enough from me for now, time to go to bed, I have to be up in four hours.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

Do you really enjoy 8 win seasons that much?  You must be a glutton for punishment.

Rome wasnt built in a day either. Augie thinking D1? You got to be joking. Details please.

[Cadsev]

Re: Wyoming Shootout (UWyo in Casper)

ESPN II carried the BSC fianls last year, not sure about the semi finals, but imagine that a game from Frost Arena being nationally televised, you won't see that with a DI NCC. I realize to some degree this may be pie-in-the-sky thinking, but IMO in the long run the upside potential for SDSU is greater in an established DI conference. Yes there would be some short term advantages in renewing former rivalries in a DI NCC, but the wait for tournament eligibility is to long. Not to mention with only 6 7 or 8 members in a DI NCC if a couple of schools get better offers from another conference and we drop below 6 members we are back to where we are today. The tough part is getting an invite to an existing DI conference.

Two things:

1.) ESPN carries almost every conference championship game (thus the term "Championship Week&quot that has an automatic berth into the Big Dance so if the Newly formed NCC conference would have an automatic bid then yes most likely they would be on national TV. Might not be in a prime time slot but I doubt the Big Sky's game was played at 7:00 PM CST.

2.) A conference has to accept NDSU and SDSU into their league. It's not so much the travel that SDSU & NDSU have to consider to these sites but the reverse as well. NDSU and SDSU have no leverage into this decision. They have a better shot of getting into a newly formed league then they do an existing league. There is strong speculation that the Big Sky will offer an invitation to both when it gets closer to their post season eligibility time as there is no reason to offer them the league now. Still that would create huge travel times and expenses for all teams in the league and teams can't fly directly into Brookings unless they charter. Not many teams in the Big Sky are chartering flights like UW Milwaukee (who charters for all of their away games). Most teams in the Big Sky fly commercially and that presents a problem when you have to fly into S. Falls and bus to Brookings or fly into Fargo and then bus down if they play back to back nights or on a weekend.