Will UND be in the Summit?

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The insistence of boosters and administrators that they needed no permission to use the word "Sioux"

The situation has come to this pretty pass because no formal negotiations were ever carried out to create a durable agreement establishing the basis and ground rules for the use of the name.

OK, I thought that you were talking about "UND had ample opportunities to solicit the good favor of the people with a legal right to that name." But you are now talking about the "The insistence of boosters and administrators that they need no permission... I believe that we have covered this ground before, but one more time. In reference to the use of the name, I believe that UND had approval to use the name from previous Sioux tribe leaders. The NCAA created a rule that defined how each school with a NA name would seek permission for the usage of the name. They gave all impacted schools a specific time period to reach this agreement or they would be penalized. UND challenged the authority of the NCAA group that defined the rules. UND/NCAA reached a legal agreement a year or two ago.. and they have until the Fall 2010 to comply with the NCAA rules. Until then, UND is considered to be in good standing with the NCAA and in progress with the new rules. UND clearly understands that they need permission to use the name and has receive permission is the past and is working toward receiving permission to continue to use the name. In fact, according to the timeline if permission is not received by the Feb/Jan - they will move forward on planning for a new name.

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The Englestad heirs and foundation, along with a few diehards, appear to be the ones blocking UND from making a change . . .

Otherwise, it seems that the fear in Grand Forks is that the Englestad people will blow up the Ralph ( . . . and the Betty) if the nickname is changed.

Really, do you a link?

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The sad part is many of these people can not see the racial overtones and often are far removed from Native Americans as we often are in South Dakota so they feel threaten about losing their rights of keeping an offensive logo, and have no idea how Native Americans feel.

Do you have facts that support this? Actually, I think many UND alumni and Native Americans have talked about this topic at great length. Many times seeking to get a better understanding of the impacts, which to me is the true sign of people caring.. It may sound strange, but in many ways it has helped relationships and unfortunately, the reverse is true in cases. In my experiences, it has been a small minority on both sides that have drawn the lines in the sands and have acted in poor taste. Unfortunately, media sells more when you show conflict.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The sad part is many of these people can not see the racial overtones and often are far removed from Native Americans as we often are in South Dakota so they feel threaten about losing their rights of keeping an offensive logo, and have no idea how Native Americans feel.

For the record, I am not trying to be a jerk in my response to your post....

How do they feel?

How is the relationship btw UND and the Sioux tribes?

As I stated before, I have an aunt in her mid-70's. She lives in No Dakota and worked with the tribes for many, many years. I lived up north (between Fargo and Grand Forks) for 5 years when this issue first started heating up. I remember UND listing all the programs they have that benefit the Native American people. Also, my aunt told me that when UND chose that name they talked to the tribes at that point and the tribes approved of it. It was meant to honor the Sioux. It was meant to honor them!

Change the name already and move on. The Native American people should put this effort into improving reservation life.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

In reference to the use of the name, I believe that UND had approval to use the name from previous Sioux tribe leaders.

My understanding on this, and I may be wrong (but that is the biggest problem in this whole issue), but my recollection is that the "permission" was given by the head of a committee on veteran's affairs and had no authority under the Tribal law to make such a commitment. If UND had received valid permission from a tribe to use the name, the entire process would have been much different with the NCAA.

However, I think none of this really matters anymore. As noted in the article about the referendum that Zoo linked (thanks by the way), under the terms of the settlement with the NCAA even if permission is now given, it can be taken away at any time. If that happens, UND gets one year to change. If UND were to go along with this under those terms, THAT is what would show judgment so poor that it is grounds for not letting them join the Summitt League.

[Nidaros]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

For the record, I am not trying to be a jerk in my response to your post....

How do they feel?

How is the relationship btw UND and the Sioux tribes?

As I stated before, I have an aunt in her mid-70's. She lives in No Dakota and worked with the tribes for many, many years. I lived up north (between Fargo and Grand Forks) for 5 years when this issue first started heating up. I remember UND listing all the programs they have that benefit the Native American people. Also, my aunt told me that when UND chose that name they talked to the tribes at that point and the tribes approved of it. It was meant to honor the Sioux. It was meant to honor them!

Change the name already and move on. The Native American people should put this effort into improving reservation life.

Lets put it this way. The resistence to change by UND alums speaks for itself. So am I suppose to believe that all these nice social and academic programs justify the use of the logo then? This is what the alums of UND would like you to believe, but I dont. Some how this programs and the use of the logo are to be a quid pro quid deal. The relationship btw UND and the Lakota tribes would be better if they dropped the Logo period. But oh no the UND alums cant do that, it means giving up a tradition that goes all the way back to 1930 something? And who was in America first? The Natives or the UND logo. This where the insensitivity can not be hidden. Its insulting to the intelligence of native americans, thats what I am saying. Hey we got this native study program for your kid, come enroll and give us permission to continue in our bigoted ways by retaining the logo.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

So if you don't have a problem w/ the logo you're a bigot?

What is the Native American that doesn't have a problem w/ the logo or name?

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

In reference to the use of the name, I believe that UND had approval to use the name from previous Sioux tribe leaders.

No. The tribes have never negotiated a contract governing the use of the name, one corporate entity to another.

Now you can list all the things that UND has done for the tribes and that should count for something. However, it merely mitigates against, but does not excuse the 'we don't need your permission to use your name' attitude that the administration has displayed in the roughly 40 years that the nickname has been an issue.

In the early 70s, when the nickname first became an issue, if UND administrators had convened a meeting with tribal leaders and said, "Hey, this is your name, your legacy, your tradition, your history, what do we need to do to have your approval to make use of it?" things would be different now.

If the UND administration had a history of constructive dialog with the tribes on this matter, this wouldn't be an issue.

But the UND administration has been anything but responsible in its use of 'stolen goods.'

And, stop and think about it, that's exactly what that nickname, headdress, logo, etc. is. It's stolen goods.

It is the name and heritage of an identifiable corporate entity that has been appropriated, without permission, by another corporate entity.

======

I mean if UND wanted to call their school the 'fighting Corvettes' and incorporated all manner of Corvette logos and imagery, do you think GM would have a legal case? Do you think UND administrators could get any weight out of a statement like, "Well, Roger Smith said that he liked it"?

Of course not. You use someone's property, you ask permission first. Whether it's the name "Sioux" or your neighbor's snowblower.

The principles of ownership and permission are cut and dried.

[Kemo]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Hey we got this native study program for your kid, come enroll and give us permission to continue in our bigoted ways by retaining the logo.

I have never understood how one can advocate tolerance by being so intolerant of of others' opinions. This isn't the Ku Klux Klan we are talking about here; these are people who obviously have a positive connection to the "Sioux" nickname and wish to keep using it based on pride, not malice. You don't have to agree with them, but flat out calling an opinion that does not align with yours an act of bigotry is, well, an act of bigotry (dictionary.com's definition of Bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own). Don't confuse tolerance and acceptance, as it is not the same thing.

Just for the record, I think UND should move on without the nickname not because people are offended by the nickname (because lets face it, almost every action offends someone), but rather it's not good business practice to allow a 3rd party to have that kind of control over something as important as post season eligibility and merchandise... and that's even if the tribes do approve the name via vote.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

You don't have to agree with them, but flat out calling an opinion that does not align with yours an act of bigotry is, well, an act of bigotry (dictionary.com's definition of Bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own). Don't confuse tolerance and acceptance, as it is not the same thing.

From Merriam-Webster's Tenth New Collegiate (a superior resource):

bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Has the UND administration been 'obstinately or intolerantly devoted' to the Sioux nickname?

Up until very recently, IMO, yes, they have. They have 'obstinately' and 'intolerantly' refused to negotiate with the tribes, insisting, instead, that they needed no one's permission to continue using the name.

Therefore, I find the use of the word 'bigoted' to be appropriate when describing the general course UND has adopted in dealing with the tribes.

BUT

By the same token, the decision to demonize Ralph Engelstad and cast all nickname supporters as racists of the manner and sort that Engelstad was (let's not kid ourselves) is just as bigoted.

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

No. The tribes have never negotiated a contract governing the use of the name, one corporate entity to another.

I did not complete full search on the permissions issue. But, this is what I have found...

''Fargo Forum reporter Teri Finneman has an interesting article about the origin of UND’s “Fighting Sioux” nickname. Prior to the 1930’s, UND teams were known as either the Flickertails or the Nodaks..... On a more serious note, this passage from Finneman’s article illustrates the difficulty UND faces in trying to secure a tribal endorsement for the nickname.

In 1969, a band of Standing Rock Sioux (Uncpapa Sioux) formally gave UND teams the right to use the name “Fighting Sioux” for its athletic teams, according to a 1969 Grand Forks Herald article.

See, UND already has a tribal endorsement for the Fighting Sioux nickname, but the tribal leaders who gave that endorsement are long gone so now, per the settlement with the NCAA, UND must secure another one."

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/rss.cfm?id=182069

So, according to what I have found - yes UND did have permission to use the name.

Now you can list all the things that UND has done for the tribes and that should count for something. However, it merely mitigates against, but does not excuse the 'we don't need your permission to use your name' attitude that the administration has displayed in the roughly 40 years that the nickname has been an issue.

- see above

In the early 70s, when the nickname first became an issue, if UND administrators had convened a meeting with tribal leaders and said, "Hey, this is your name, your legacy, your tradition, your history, what do we need to do to have your approval to make use of it?" things would be different now.

- I think they already covered that in 1969.

If the UND administration had a history of constructive dialog with the tribes on this matter, this wouldn't be an issue.

But the UND administration has been anything but responsible in its use of 'stolen goods.'

And, stop and think about it, that's exactly what that nickname, headdress, logo, etc. is. It's stolen goods.

It is the name and heritage of an identifiable corporate entity that has been appropriated, without permission, by another corporate entity.

- see above.
======

I mean if UND wanted to call their school the 'fighting Corvettes' and incorporated all manner of Corvette logos and imagery, do you think GM would have a legal case? Do you think UND administrators could get any weight out of a statement like, "Well, Roger Smith said that he liked it"?

Of course not. You use someone's property, you ask permission first. Whether it's the name "Sioux" or your neighbor's snowblower.

The principles of ownership and permission are cut and dried.

Again, I am not trying to cause problems. I am just trying to set the record straight. I am a UND grad and I am all for the name change and for UND to continue the out reach programs.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

So, according to what I have found - yes UND did have permission to use the name.

1) That link's busted. Go here for a 'primary source' mention of of what happened in 1969:
http://indiancountrynews.net/index.p...103&Itemid=115

2) That's not a contract. It's not a legally binding negotiated document between two entities. It was nothing more than a 'statement' that was about as legally enforceable as a fart in a snowstorm.

I was aware, when I posted, previously that the Standing Rock tribe had 'formally granted permission.' I couldn't find an article because I thought it had taken place in the 70s, not 1969.

My point is that these occasional 'statements' are legally useless. They carry no legal weight. They're unenforceable.

----

In fact, there's a certain patronizing air that surrounds these 'formal' statements.

Why?

They're legal garbage. Asking for legal garbage and then acting as though it's meaningful is an insult to both parties. It demeans one party and exposes the other to charges of bigotry and racism.

----

The most ludicrous part of this is that Florida State has set an exceptional example in tribal relations, as it relates to mascot issues, where UND has excelled everywhere else. But guess which school has been more negatively affected?






And people say that college athletics don't matter............................................ .....

[SDHoops]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The Native American people should put this effort into improving reservation life.

WOW! As a Native American, I can't believe you could post something like this. You don't live on the reservation, you don't know how hard it is to improve things with limited resources and virtually no economy. Yes, there are politics that prevent things from moving faster, but we definitely move day by day. More and more people are getting educated, which is a step. A few of your SDSU athletes are Native American. I can't believe you could discredit their efforts for trying to make a better life for their people. It's always a double standard with us. When we are active and trying to make a change, we are being too radical. When we go off to college, get a degree, then come back home it is seen as a failure. I wish you could see how little of jobs we have here. I am a college student in a town off of the reservation and have been here for three years. I have put in numerous applications for part-time jobs in the town and on EVERY application, I always checked the voluntary box that acknowledges my Native American heritage. Out of an estimated thirty jobs applied for, I was only called in for an interview once (mind you, there are minimum wage, entry-level type, willing to train type jobs).

Either I have to put my identity to the side to get ahead in life or I can keep my pride and struggle to make ends meet. But hey, I saved up money to go to YOUR college teams football and basketball games to support our hometown Native Americans, then I read something like this. For the first time in decades, the Obama administration has included education for tribal colleges in their budget, something the Bush administration didn't want anything to do with. Maybe this is a step forward.

[Kemo]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

From Merriam-Webster's Tenth New Collegiate (a superior resource):



Has the UND administration been 'obstinately or intolerantly devoted' to the Sioux nickname?

Up until very recently, IMO, yes, they have. They have 'obstinately' and 'intolerantly' refused to negotiate with the tribes, insisting, instead, that they needed no one's permission to continue using the name.

Therefore, I find the use of the word 'bigoted' to be appropriate when describing the general course UND has adopted in dealing with the tribes.

BUT

By the same token, the decision to demonize Ralph Engelstad and cast all nickname supporters as racists of the manner and sort that Engelstad was (let's not kid ourselves) is just as bigoted.

Well, we seem to be in agreement then... I honestly don't have a very strong opinion on the nickname issue, I just don't think it's well reasoned to "demonize" one side or the other on the issue, so I figured I'd throw my .02 in here.

P.S. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary is harder to find a link to

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

SDHoops - I am sorry that I offended you. Maybe I can explain....

Are you saying that reservation life is fine? Or, to take it a step further, that everything that is wrong is out of the hands of the people who reside on the reservation? In the interest of keeping it short, I have traveled this state working with local law enfocement. I have seen alot. A relative is also in the same field and relays his experiences. Growing up my family did foster care, not for the money. We opened our doors to Native American kids and treated them as family, both when they lived with us and after.

There is no disrespect. I have just always found it interesting the activists who have chosen the sports nickname route instead of using that time, effort and money to try and change some of the issues that plague the Native Americans today. I don't view a name like the Indians or Red Storm or Warriors (all former team names) and look down upon the Native American people b/c of it.

Am I wrong or a bigot or disrespectful to say there are concerning issues with South Dakota reservations today? One person on here said we are obigated to help the Native American people. Can we do that if we turn a blind eye to the struggles facing them?

Keep up the good work. Keep the faith.