Will UND be in the Summit?

[2002jack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I debated adding SDSU to that group. I left them out for two reasons. First, the list was getting too long. Second, remember who I was writing for. IUPUI is a known quanity for them, your MBB history is not. From their POV, you've never been a contender for the Summit crown. With the post already as long as it was, I didn't want to muddy things up any more than I had to.

NDSU wins ONE conference championship, and all of a sudden no other team from the Dakotas will ever be able to compete with them. Bison fans are RIDICULOUS.

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

NDSU wins ONE conference championship, and all of a sudden no other team from the Dakotas will ever be able to compete with them. Bison fans are RIDICULOUS.

Hammersmith rarely if ever posts smack. His posts are usually worth reading and while he's a Bison backer he's not one of the crazy ones by any stretch.

[Lakesbison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

so seriously, no one wants to debate the fact that UND and their NASCAR SIOUX JERSEY WEARING FANS WILL NEVER LET THE SIOUX NAME DIE?


why would any of you want that in our conference?

You think there was some Smack talking in sioux falls between NDSU and SDSU fans this year? there would be full out riots with those pricks from up north, because they will ALWAYS be the kind of fans that fight with you at every opportunity.

at least NDSU fans will smack talk and trash talk with you and buy you a beer or shot while they do it!! *wink*

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

NDSU wins ONE conference championship, and all of a sudden no other team from the Dakotas will ever be able to compete with them. Bison fans are RIDICULOUS.

I think you misunderstood what Hammersmith was saying. He thought ORU fans wouldn't think of SDSU in that way.

As for the Dakota's, I don't think UND has much of a chance in MBB, hockey is going to choke that program. SDSU and USD on the other hand will be great basketball rivals for NDSU. We can all kick UND around.

This quote sums up UND basketball perfectly...

I once covered a basketball recruit who went to UND, and after his visit he talked about how nice the hockey facilities were. It wasn’t long before he transfered somewhere else to play hoops.

http://rumorsandrants.com/2009/03/th...a-history.html

[2002jack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I think you misunderstood what Hammersmith was saying. He thought ORU fans wouldn't think of SDSU in that way.

As for the Dakota's, I don't think UND has much of a chance in MBB, hockey is going to choke that program. SDSU and USD on the other hand will be great basketball rivals for NDSU. We can all kick UND around.

This quote sums up UND basketball perfectly...



http://rumorsandrants.com/2009/03/th...a-history.html

I was probably to quick to judge Hammersmith. My bad. I'd like to see what he posted on the ORU forum. If someone could copy/paste, it would be much appreciated.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

after his visit he talked about how nice the hockey facilities were

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I think you misunderstood what Hammersmith was saying. He thought ORU fans wouldn't think of SDSU in that way.

As for the Dakota's, I don't think UND has much of a chance in MBB, hockey is going to choke that program. SDSU and USD on the other hand will be great basketball rivals for NDSU. We can all kick UND around.

This quote sums up UND basketball perfectly...



http://rumorsandrants.com/2009/03/th...a-history.html

First off congrats to NDSU on the basketball success this year. I hope that they can continue to build on this success. I would like to say that I think UND would be a great addition to the Summit League. I think it is a bit strange that many people say DU would be a great addition, because UND is a one dimensional hockey school. They obviously do not know much about DU. DU is a bigger hockey only school than UND.

As to UND not being able to build a basketball program, I think that is bunk. It will take hard work, but the framework for success is in place for the following reasons:

1) UND does have a basketball tradition and has been successful in the past. In addition, they have been very well supported by the fans - NOTE: I think that UND had attendance figures that matched SDSU with a first year transitional schedule. I think the support will only grow as they play more recognized DI programs.
2) New basketball facilities already in place - if the program grows other facilities are ready to be used for basketball.
3) UND has two primary revenue sports (football and hockey) so support revenue stream are available.
4) The AD has already stated that they need to build the men’s basketball program. The monies going into the program can go directly to coaching, scholarships and marketing, because the infrastructure is already in place.

Am I saying UND will be an overnight success in basketball, probably not, but the framework is in place to be a very successful mid major program.

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I'm glad the UND basketball program has at least one advocate, it is very sad reading SS.com lately and seeing the posts that pretty much state that hockey and football is all that matters. If I was UND fan I would be very angry reading some of that crap, basketball is a very important sport in DI and getting into the Summit League shouldn't be taken so lightly.

It is shame that some fans seem to show that kind of disregard for UND hoops because I think Jones is a good coach. Good enough that maybe he can get it turned around but the odds are steep. He'll need to catch some luck like NDSU did, that one class could very well completely turn NDSU basketball around for sometime. If that didn't happen I am probably not speaking so negatively of UND because our situations would be similar. UND basketball is in some need of some serious momentum, momentum that will drive fans to care and give $$$. Momentum that will be hard to come by since you have given NDSU and SDSU a huge recruiting advantage by sticking in DII for too long.

I support UND and Denver because the alternatives are far worse and they are both good schools. Maybe they can overcome their hockey obstacles, both have a tough road though.

I don't care what anyone says, the Betty was the worst idea in the history of UND basketball, I don't know how any coach could handle having to walk by that beautiful hockey arena and then have to tell their recruits that they actually play in a 3,000 seat gym around the corner. It is basically like a neon sign that states WE ARE A HOCKEY SCHOOL. Recruits will get a far different vibe in visiting NDSU, USD, SDSU, Montana, Montana State, Colorado State(as long as Miles is there), UNI, Creighton, Milwaukee, Drake, and Green Bay. Recruiting is fierce enough without have to deal with that, that isn't going to cut it in DI, if I was Jones I would lobby hard to get UND basketball back in the REA.

[NorCalJack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I was probably to quick to judge Hammersmith. My bad. I'd like to see what he posted on the ORU forum. If someone could copy/paste, it would be much appreciated.

Here it is, kind of long but a good read:

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I've been doing a heart-lung transplant to my computer(new motherboard, processors and RAM), and it hasn't been very stable for the last few days. The last thing I wanted was for it to crash after spending 30+ minutes working on a post.

The title of my homework report is: "Who is UND, and what are they to the Summit(and ORU)?"

In many ways, think of UND as the mirror institution to NDSU. We have somewhat different missions, but we are the same size, attract the same students, have very similar university and athletic budgets, and have similar mixes of strong and weak programs(both academic and athletic). UND was formed from the grant given to newly-ratified states to create a public university. Like many states, North Dakota used the money to build a liberal arts/professional school with medical and law programs. NDSU was created from funds given to North Dakota as part of the Morril Act to create universities with agriculture and applied science programs(engineering). In this way, North Dakota was more like Oklahoma, Colorado or Kansas, than Minnesota, Nebraska or Wyoming(two major state universities rather than one). For about the first 80 years, the schools had distinct missions and there were clear differences between the two. In the last 25 years, the two schools have grown together to the point of the mirror image. NDSU has grown to exceed UND in enrollment and has added a strong business school, while UND has added strong engineering programs and is trying to rival NDSU in research expenditures.

From an athletic point of view, you have to understand that everything at UND revolves around hockey. It has made up as much as 30% of their athletic budget, and most fundraising efforts are channeled through it. Football is the clear number two sport because the season only slightly overlaps with hockey.

So what about the Summit sports?

Men's basketball is currently very weak at UND. They had some glory days, but those are decades past. Currently, they struggle to win contests versus local NAIA schools. This is an improvement over a couple years ago when they were regularly losing to those NAIA schools. To give a sense of perspective, one of the highlights of UND's season this last year was defeating UMKC. We all know how tough it was taking down the Roos(even if NDSU did do their best to lose in one of their matchups).

Women's basketball has been enjoying a very good couple decades. They've had a hard time getting to and winning the DII championship, but they are still a very solid program. Most of their fans think they will follow in SDSU's shoes, but I have my doubts. I fear they will follow NDSU's lead more. I feel their coach, Gene Roebuck, is more like NDSU's Amy Ruley than SDSU's Aaron Johnston. I think UND will have similar problems recruiting out-region talent as NDSU has had. I can't say I'm not biased, so take it with a grain of salt.

Volleyball has traditionally been very weak at UND. They were 6-23 two years ago, and that was only somewhat worse than their typical record. However, they posted a very good 24-8 this last season. Since there were only a couple of full DI teams on their schedule, it's hard to know if their improved record was based on quality of play or quality of schedule(or lack thereof). One of their major problems has been a revolving door of coaches. They will have yet another new coach this fall, as they hired an assistant from NMSU in January.

The three sports above play in the Betty Englestead Sioux Center(or just the Betty). Connected to the Ralph Englestead Arena(hockey), it's a nice, if small, venue. Perfect for volleyball, it's approx. 3100-seat capacity is small for DI basketball. UND used to put the large-drawing games in the Ralph, but they phased that out a few years back. It's unknown whether they will try it again, but hockey scheduling will always reign supreme. The MBB attendance has been reported as strong over the last several years, but that's an illusion. Playing mostly doubleheaders, the fans were showing up for the women's games and then leaving before the men's game started. The fans that left were still counted in the MBB attendance. I expect to see the dropping MBB attendance continue as doubleheaders become increasingly scarce(unless the MBB team completely turns things around). FYI, UND basketball attendance last year was 1463/1813(M/W). This has been a major drop from just five years ago when the tallies were 2791/2313.

You've already seen the facility that UND baseball plays at. It's not the worst of UND's facilities, but it's close. UND's baseball team is historically as bad as NDSU's was, but, like NDSU's, it's beginning to show some signs of life. With a new coach this year, they've done surprisingly well against the DI opposition they've faced(though they did finish 14-29). There's no way to know yet if the decent play was a fluke or a sign of things to come. Like many UND facilities, Kraft Field suffers from being city-owned and off-campus. It's about 1.5 miles from campus and located on the grounds of one of the city's high schools.

UND softball is very similar to baseball. The program has had little success in the past, but has a new coach(2nd year). They struggled worse than the baseball team this year, going 9-33, and they play on a field adjacent to Kraft.

UND's track teams have also been poor and suffer from bad(or no) facilities. UND does not have an indoor track facility and the outdoor facility(at their old football stadium) is in such poor shape that it can't even host high school meets. An indoor practice facility(with track) is at the top of their facilities wish list, but they haven't started the public fundraising for it and we don't know if private fundraising has begun.

UND does have a 9-hole golf course on campus, but our weather means it's rarely ready by the time the NCAA season is over. It's hard to know exactly how good UND will be in golf, because all the old NCC schools faced the same weather problems. I believe SDSU was the class of the old NCC, so I would put UND's level much closer to NDSU's.

Women's soccer is also weak. They finished 5-12-0 in their head coach's first year. They play on a grass field with no improvements that's part of the greater Ralph Engelstead complex. Actually, it's on the other side of the parking lot from UND's bookstore(was a B&N until this winter).

Women's tennis is mediocre. They finished 10-10 this year and practice about 3 miles off-campus at a local fitness center. NDSU doesn't have tennis, so I don't follow the sport very much and can't give a better description of UND's program.

I'm ending on a high note by leaving UND's swim teams until last. They have a very good program and a very nice facility. The Hyslop is about 60 years old, but the pool is only about 30 and is in very good shape. If UND gets into the Summit, expect the conference championships to be up there fairly often(not that ORU has S&D). UND was invited to the C-USA conference championship this year to help fill out the tourney, and they placed toward the back of the pack. From our experience in wrestling, we know how bad the individual competition sports can be hit during a DII to DI transition, so I expect we're just seeing a bit of a down time for UND S&D, and they will be back up in a couple years. If invited into the league, they will be a perennial contender for the Summit crowns.


So wrapping up, while UND is a strong school overall, their strongest sports are not ones that the Summit sponsors. Also, their strongest sports that do overlap with the Summit are not the ones that ORU sponsors or focuses on. In the sports that you care about, UND will not be a challenge. MBB will always play second fiddle to hockey, and I doubt it will get enough support to challenge ORU, OU, NDSU, & IUPUI for the league title. With a total of 20 sports and the Title IX implications of football and hockey to deal with, I expect baseball will be at the very bottom of UND's priority list, if it even survives the budgeting axe. T&F is another area where I doubt UND will compete well with NDSU, SUU & ORU. And I very much doubt UND will compete with you in golf.

Whether you consider this stuff good or bad is up to you. Take it all with a little grain of salt as I'm an NDSU fan and UND is our historical rival. Also, I'm not a huge sports fan, so I might have missed a lot of stuff from the histories of the individual sports.

Personally, I'd rather have Denver in the conference than UND, but it's not by a huge amount. I don't like the idea that some in the Dakotas have(especially from UND/USD) about trying to turn the Summit into the old NCC. At NDSU, we've spent the last few years looking ahead and finding new rivals in DI. The second wave of Dakota schools seem more concerned about recapturing the past than forging a new future. It bothers me.

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I really feel sorry Douple, a guy that just wants to create a Dakota core is going to forever go down as the guy that killed the Fighting Sioux nickname to many in GF.

At every other Dakota school he is the guy that helped seal the deal on something that was seen as a very urgent need. While we sat on the cusp of a Summit invite we waited with nervous anticipation. At UND they sit back and rip the comish at every turn.

Then why shouldn't the Summit accept UND's application, make the site visit and if the only item left to be resolved is the "controversy" (which as I've explained before is a complete misnomer, hence the quotes) over the nickname, make the invitation contingent upon its resolution? That is completely reasonable - why would the league object? They object because they insist upon being punitive. Again, "Yeah he treats me like crap now, but it'll be different once we're married". It stinks and I want to know why. All sorts of alarms with bells, whistles and flashing lights are going off, yet we seem perfectly content to ignore them and take a leap based solely on hope.

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.p...dpost&p=396034

The Summit is a flat out garbage conference across the board. The fact we are considering throwing something away that means so much to so many people is shameful. I am shocked we haven't seen more of an uproar at Kelly's house, the SBOHE's decision was conveniently timed for the Thursday of finals week at North Dakota. In my day such a decision would have resulted in a near riot on campus. Kelly is completely anti the nickname and has been from the get go. Sorry for that tanget back to my displeasure with the Summit league. NDSU has won Summit League crowns in three sports this year, Men's Basketball, Softball, and Volleyball, and South Dakota State won Girl's Basketball. Four of the conferences major titles were one by relatively new Division 1 programs. How will we better ourselves joining this type of conference? The correct answer is we won't.

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.p...dpost&p=396122

[Lakesbison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

SEE!! thats why NDSU/SDSU/USD shouldnt WANT UND in the SUMMIT!

they rip on the SUMMIT every chance!!

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I'm assuming that the more rational UND fans are aware that their nickname would be an albatross for ANY conference, from the Summit to the Pac-10, and that no other conference has expressed even the slightest interest in having them around...

---

And you know, Lakes, you've ripped on the Summit more than once.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Where in the heck do these UND fans want to go and who do they think will take them?

Big Sky? Ohio Valley? Horizon? Missouri Valley? No friggin' way any of those take UND.

The Summit is their only hope....and they're darn lucky they have that.

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Where in the heck do these UND fans want to go and who do they think will take them?

Big Sky? Ohio Valley? Horizon? Missouri Valley? No friggin' way any of those take UND.

The Summit is their only hope....and they're darn lucky they have that.

It always boggled my mind that fans of schools that weren't in a D-I autobid conference (to include, from time to time, the occasional NDSU and SDSU and USD fan before we all got into the Summit) would go out of their way to run down basically the only D-I conference that they had any geographic chance whatsoever to get into--ESPECIALLY in the newer, probably much tighter economic times we're looking at going forward.

It just Makes No Sense. If you're so down on the Summit, you shouldn't have gone D-I in the first place.

One of the first lessons you learn in going D-I is that Nobody Owes You Anything. You get what you get through hard work, because nobody in D-I is going to hand you any kind of lifeline. You have to make yourself appealing enough for the rest of D-I, specifically an autobid conference, to be interested in you--it won't just happen because you think you deserve it.

[HoboD]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Dont be misled to think that the rantings of a handful of bloggers represent the bulk of UND supporters. My contacts with folks in Grand Forks and UND have been realistic for along time to the effect that the name is going to have to change, that they were going to go D-1, and that the Summit is the best option for them. In fact, a coach up there told me the sooner they get it done and move on the better and that everyone is tired of the topic. Im guessing most have resigned themselves to the inevitable and are ready to move on and that within a year of the change it will be a forgotten issue. Anyone remember the Stanford Indians?