Will UND be in the Summit?

[NightHawk78]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I know the Big Sky is in a little bit of trouble and all, but they wouldn't accept NDSU and SDSU (mainly for geographic reasons) so why the heck would they accept just UND (which is the furthest of all the Dakota schools from the Big Sky).

If I were UND the name and logo would have been gone a long time ago. It certainly would have been gone before I went D1 without a conference. Maybe they know something we don't, but, if the Summit says no thanks, UND is in big trouble. Independent is no way to do D1, especially when you're located in Grand Forks, ND.

Agreed . . . if the Summit tells UND to take their Ralph and shove it, UND's hopes of D-I success are slim or none with Slim being in a deep coma.

Other than the Summit, the Big Sky is the only conference that would even think about adding UND . . . and that's not likely.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Think about it awhile.If the jacks could no longer be called the jackrabbits, what would you call your team?Not that many cool critters roam the upper plains, jackrabbits,(best), coyotes, bison,are taken, that leaves beavers, possums, racoons,skunks(definately out of the question), numerous birds, or types of people past (pirates, homesteaders, miners, (i think that's taken already)I think rather than re-name, just show the sioux tribes the respect they want & negotiate with them & come up with some type of agreement with them that will satisfy both sides.

What's wrong with the original name of Flicker Tails? Aren't the original colors pink and green? Go for it, it would make 'em tougher.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

To clear up a couple things:

There was only one lawsuit and settlement and that was between UND/State of North Dakota and the NCAA. While the Sioux tribes are named in the settlement, they were not a direct participant.

The North Dakota State Board of Higher Education(SBoHE), is very similar to your Board of Regents and took control of the Fighting Sioux nickname sometime around 2000-2002. They did that because Ralph Englestead threatened to stop construction on the hockey arena(REA) and "let it rot in the North Dakota winters" if the name were to be changed(the new UND president, Charles Kupchela, had made noises he was considering a change). Ralph went over Kupchela's head and got the SBoHE to kill any change before it started. The legacy of this is that Robert Kelley and Brian Faison(UND's current president and athletic director) have no control over whether the name will change or when.

There are three possible scenarios that come out of the UND/NCAA settlement. UND can drop the name, UND can keep the name with the approval of both ND Sioux tribes, or UND can keep the name without approval and the NCAA sanctions will resume. The odds of that last scenario are pretty low, but it still could happen.

As per the settlement, if UND keeps the name with permission, either of the tribes can rescind that permission at any time and UND will have one calender year to re-secure permission or drop the name.

There is major confusion whether the upcoming vote at Spirit Lake will have any binding consequences, and the same is true with Standing Rock if they get their reservation-wide vote. In some ways, the hope that these votes are generating is coming at the worst possible time. Even the most ardent nickname supporters were just about ready to give up and change the name when the news of this referendum hit. The votes probably won't change the outcome in the long run regardless of the results, but it will delay the change for another 6-12 months; time UND may or may not have.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Thanks Hammer. I agree that the announcement of the referndum is not good in the big picture, just puts a potential delay in the process. I still come back to an entity trying to make plans when an integral part of their identity is controlled by someone else. That is bad no matter what business you are in.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

If they throw away post season play and conference affiliation just to keep a nickname and logo then they are absolutely insane.

[JackJD]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Some schools change names/mascots as often as college freshmen change the sheets on their beds (about once a year). (Marquette.) If the people running the college bookstores controlled the decision, names/mascots would be changed as soon a revenues from T-shirt, sweatshirt and logo caps dropped below a certain amount. UND must have a strong contingent who are pounded on the "principle" of not being told what to do by either a) the NCAA; and/or b) the Tribes. In the meantime, the world moves on. As an institution, UND appears to casual observers like me as having buried its head in a sandpile. I'm not sure we want those kind of thinkers in the Summit League.

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Some schools change names/mascots as often as college freshmen change the sheets on their beds (about once a year). (Marquette.) If the people running the college bookstores controlled the decision, names/mascots would be changed as soon a revenues from T-shirt, sweatshirt and logo caps dropped below a certain amount. UND must have a strong contingent who are pounded on the "principle" of not being told what to do by either a) the NCAA; and/or b) the Tribes. In the meantime, the world moves on. As an institution, UND appears to casual observers like me as having buried its head in a sandpile. I'm not sure we want those kind of thinkers in the Summit League.

I think that Marquette is an example of why the State of North Dakota is moving slowly on this issue. I think they have gone from Warriors to Golden Eagles (1994), then to the Gold (2004) and now back to Golden Eagles (2005).. it does not appear to be over yet..

"However, the Board of Trustees ignored the results of the poll on the grounds that previous logos had been disrespectful to Native Americans, and changed the nickname to simply "Gold". An intensely negative reaction by students, faculty, alumni, and fans led to yet another series of votes, which eventually pitted "Golden Eagles" against "Hilltoppers". Respondents were told in advance that write-in votes for "Warriors" would not be tabulated, (although those results were later released) and "Golden Eagles" was restored in June 2005."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquette_University

(NOTE: please take wikipedia with a grain of salt... I do not have the time for detailed research on Marquette)

In reference to you comment about the NCAA - I would be OK with the change .. if the NCAA had a NO NATIVE AMERICAN NAMES/LOGO ALLOWED approach. But, the NCAA did not have the strength to stand-up to the large schools. They just handed all the problems over to the schools impacted. This issue would be over with proper leadership at the NCAA level. I would like to note that I am not giving UND a free pass on this topic... they have had missteps prior to the NCAA announcement.

The State of North Dakota is moving forward with a timeline that was presented as part of a legal settlement. I believe that the primary date at that time was the end of transition. If a conference affiliation was on the line. I am sure that they would have set a more aggressive date. As much as I would like to see the dates moved forward, I am not sure this is the highest priority with the current economy.

I will not go into the PC crowd in/at our Universities/Media..

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

UND had ample opportunities to solicit the good favor of the people with a legal right to that name. They didn't and now they're in a pickle.

As far as Marquette goes, I think going from golden eagles to 'gold' is beyond the height of lunacy. It's like there's this sort of high point for lunacy (Spearfish Sea Kittens is a perfect example of proposed lunacy) and becoming the Marquette 'Gold' is so much in excess that we need, frankly, new words to describe it.

[Nidaros]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Some schools change names/mascots as often as college freshmen change the sheets on their beds (about once a year). (Marquette.) If the people running the college bookstores controlled the decision, names/mascots would be changed as soon a revenues from T-shirt, sweatshirt and logo caps dropped below a certain amount. UND must have a strong contingent who are pounded on the "principle" of not being told what to do by either a) the NCAA; and/or b) the Tribes. In the meantime, the world moves on. As an institution, UND appears to casual observers like me as having buried its head in a sandpile. I'm not sure we want those kind of thinkers in the Summit League.

You are absolutely right about the strong contingent. This was a little hard for the ND delegation to handle (Conrad,Dorgan and Pomeroy) when they got an early visit from the then candidate and current president. They were proud to hand the now POTUS a hockey stick and never uttered the words"Fighting Sioux" but they are all UND grads and I think they wanted to say something about keeping the logo, but did not. Later that same day, the other candidate now Secretary of State made a later appearance and she made a comment about the logo and she got a roar of approval. This comment ruined the rally of 19,000 at the Alerus Center IMO. That in itself made my choice in the SD primary very easy. As you can tell I am not a member of the GOP. I know I getting political here, but its an issue that the UND community is not wanting to deal with on their own.

The sad part is many of these people can not see the racial overtones and often are far removed from Native Americans as we often are in South Dakota so they feel threaten about losing their rights of keeping an offensive logo, and have no idea how Native Americans feel. They also do not care how the Native Americans feel since their preception is clouded with sterotypes. If one Native American shrugs their shoulders and cares less about the logo, then they assume it okay to have the logo and the racial issue is overblown. Its going to take a carrot such as membership in the Summit League to get these people to wake up.

[joeboo22]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

You are absolutely right about the strong contingent. This was a little hard for the ND delegation to handle (Conrad,Dorgan and Pomeroy) when they got an early visit from the then candidate and current president. They were proud to hand the now POTUS a hockey stick and never uttered the words"Fighting Sioux" but they are all UND grads and I think they wanted to say something about keeping the logo, but did not. Later that same day, the other candidate now Secretary of State made a later appearance and she made a comment about the logo and she got a roar of approval. This comment ruined the rally of 19,000 at the Alerus Center IMO. That in itself made my choice in the SD primary very easy. As you can tell I am not a member of the GOP. I know I getting political here, but its an issue that the UND community is not wanting to deal with on their own.

The sad part is many of these people can not see the racial overtones and often are far removed from Native Americans as we often are in South Dakota so they feel threaten about losing their rights of keeping an offensive logo, and have no idea how Native Americans feel. They also do not care how the Native Americans feel since their preception is clouded with sterotypes. If one Native American shrugs their shoulders and cares less about the logo, then they assume it okay to have the logo and the racial issue is overblown. Its going to take a carrot such as membership in the Summit League to get these people to wake up.

When every you change a logo you are opening yourself up to critizism...... When Yankton changed there logo from the Buck Indians to the Bucks and Gazells a bunch of alum cried foul..... When you see co-ops formed the alum from each high school complain that the new logo is too much like the other schools old one and so on...... Personally I don't care, I think that if the Sioux Tribe wants to get rid of the mascot it should happen.... The problem is there hockey is there money maker and there are some pretty big money associated with hockey that don't want to see the mascot changed..... and on the same part you are killing your other sports departments with not changing it..... If it don't get changed soon you are talking about a school that won't be able to stay D-I for long.....

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

You may be able to excuse me for quoting Jane Austen on a sports board, because I was a liberal arts major--but regardless I am quoting her as this snippet seems extremely appropriate regarding UND:

"and while meanly exerting their power to delay it, are in their hearts not thinking the better of him for submitting to their whims. Respect for right conduct is felt by everybody. If he would act in this sort of manner, on principle, consistently, regularly, their little minds would bend to his."

I do not believe that a sufficient number of petty threats regarding donations and the nickname would be carried out if UND said, "We are going to do the right thing and put this behind us."

[NightHawk78]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I do not believe that a sufficient number of petty threats regarding donations and the nickname would be carried out if UND said, "We are going to do the right thing and put this behind us."

The Englestad heirs and foundation, along with a few diehards, appear to be the ones blocking UND from making a change . . .

Otherwise, it seems that the fear in Grand Forks is that the Englestad people will blow up the Ralph ( . . . and the Betty) if the nickname is changed.

[SDSF]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

UND had ample opportunities to solicit the good favor of the people with a legal right to that name. They didn't and now they're in a pickle.

As far as Marquette goes, I think going from golden eagles to 'gold' is beyond the height of lunacy. It's like there's this sort of high point for lunacy (Spearfish Sea Kittens is a perfect example of proposed lunacy) and becoming the Marquette 'Gold' is so much in excess that we need, frankly, new words to describe it.

You have mentioned that UND had ample opportunities to solicit good favor of the people.. but, I know that UND has started several great programs (I will mention only a few):
1) Specific NA education programs
2) Scholarships
3) Medical training

What specific examples are you referring to?

Personally, I think reaching out to NA to help them is responsibility of all people and state sponsored schools in the upper Midwest - Min, SD, ND, and Neb. I am proud of the fact that I think UND does more than another other school in the region. Unfortunately a lot of positive effort is easily over looked when some people only want to see the negative.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The Englestad heirs and foundation, along with a few diehards, appear to be the ones blocking UND from making a change . . .

Otherwise, it seems that the fear in Grand Forks is that the Englestad people will blow up the Ralph ( . . . and the Betty) if the nickname is changed.

The only way they can block the name change is by making threats.

The idea that an institution should be held hostage by loud talk.........





It's disgusting.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

What specific examples are you referring to?

The insistence of boosters and administrators that they needed no permission to use the word "Sioux"

The situation has come to this pretty pass because no formal negotiations were ever carried out to create a durable agreement establishing the basis and ground rules for the use of the name.