Will UND be in the Summit?

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Am I interested in seeing the old rivalry with USD? Not really. Not until USD gets an actual basketball arena. And no playing in the high school gym.

I am shocked how many State fans feel this way. I wonder if the Bison fans feel the same about UND?

Would adding USD benefit the Summit?

Would playing USD twice a year benefit SDSU?

Would the rivalry stoke up the interest in both programs in the region?

[jackmd]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I am shocked how many State fans feel this way. I wonder if the Bison fans feel the same about UND?

Would adding USD benefit the Summit?

Would playing USD twice a year benefit SDSU?

Would the rivalry stoke up the interest in both programs in the region?

USD and UND would both be beneficial additions to the Summit once they are full-fledged DI teams.

SDSU playing USD until they are full-fledged DI would be of little benefit. The attendance would likely be better than many games but that is only a small benefit.

Resumption of "the rivalry" is in the best interest of USD. I don't see any great benefit for us at this time. USD will again circle the SDSU game as "the game of the year" while we are focused on winning conference games and advancing to the post-season.

I agree with adding both schools to the conference once they complete transition, or perhaps, in the last year like they did with the SU's. I fail to see the urgency on the Summit League's part to add them ASAP.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

[quote]There is that: North Dakota has only two of the over ten Sioux tribes.quote]

But they are the NORTH DAKOTA FIGHTING SIOUX. Not the United States Fighting Sioux.

But the Native Americans won't let it rest, no matter how much it was meant to honor them. Would an honest, accurate depiction of today's Native American make them happy? Just change the darn name already! Might I suggest the Pilots (for the aerospace program) or Norskies or Survivors or Fighting Whiteys or Lutefisk or Fighting Sue or Reds (for the Red River) or Polars or Explorers (Lewis and Clark) or Beets.....

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Agree 100% Jackmd

[bigticket1]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

It is amazing that Centenary finds the assets to operate a D-1 program with an enrollment of 910.If anyone might find their way out of the Summit,they would have to be one of the top candidates.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

But the Native Americans won't let it rest, no matter how much it was meant to honor them.

Look. Say you really like Budweiser beer. Say you decide that you're going to start a baseball team, and in order to pay tribute to your favorite beer, you're going to call your team the Budweisers.

Think the Budweiser people are going to have a problem with that?

UND was not founded by the Sioux tribes, nor has it ever had a predominantly Sioux enrollment--therefore, unlike the La-Lafayette "Ragin' Cajuns" or the Notre Dame "Fighting Irish", the nickname can't be considered 'self-applied'

Essentially, UND appropriated a name that is the legal (and moral) property of a distinct and definable entity that deserves to be consulted on the matter.

It is not the name that is the problem. It is the refusal to request permission that is the problem.

But what about South "DAKOTA" or "SIOUX" Falls? Those are place names. It is not as though the city of Sioux Falls has adopted a Native American mascot, it is not as though the city of Sioux Falls has adopted Native American trappings.

Again, it's not the name that's the problem. It's the use of Native American trappings, a Native American mascot, etc.

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And, seeing that there are far more "Sioux" tribes outside North Dakota than in it, the idea that -only- the North Dakota Sioux tribes need to be consulted seems a bit wrong-headed.

At any rate, the point is moot as the directive is 'plan a phase-out in 2010 unless we decide otherwise' and they can't even find Sioux tribesmen to sit on the committee.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

It is amazing that Centenary finds the assets to operate a D-1 program with an enrollment of 910.If anyone might find their way out of the Summit,they would have to be one of the top candidates.

Their baseball team has, so far, knocked off #1 Texas A&M and #18 Arkansas....

Thing is, everyone always figures Centenary is going D-3 or something.

The reality is Centenary is a pretty exclusive and pretty highly regarded private UG school.

"exclusive" + "highly regarded" = "expensive"

So I figure they run their athletic department as a kind of financial aid unit. If they got rid of their athletic department scholarships, they'd probably have to find other scholarship money elsewhere to keep those kids enrolled.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I'm not really for adding UND/USD to the Summit. It won't be the end of the world if we do, but I'd rather we not. While it's nice for the xDSUs because we'll get a couple good crowds and some short(read: cheap) trips, it doesn't benefit the conference as a whole. For other members, it's another long trip that they'd don't need to make. With the exception of SUU, the other Summit schools have many other scheduling options that don't require a flight or a long bus trip.

Additionally, adding the UxDs doesn't help the conference where we need it most: men's basketball. We have to face the facts: the Summit is a low-major conference. We have three teams at the moment that are mid-majors: NDSU, ORU & Oakland. The rest are low-majors. In order to be considered a mid-major conference, over half the men's basketball programs will have to be mid-majors. If we add the UxDs, we'd be adding two more low-major programs while increasing the number of mid-majors we'd need to bump up the conference. I don't believe UND will ever have a mid-major program and I have my doubts about USD. Even if I'm wrong, it's going to take many years for them to reach mid-major status. I'd rather they do that on their own instead of doing it while dragging down the conference. I'd like to see the Summit take the next several years and improve the standing of the current members(including SDSU) and then later adding the UxDs when we're strong enough to handle the drag they will be without it dropping the entire conference into low-major territory.

Again, the UxDs don't bring anything new to the Summit that the xDSUs didn't already bring. Both states are small media markets, and the Dakota State that moved up has already brought most of its state's attention. In North Dakota, we have three types of sports fans: the neutral fan, the NDSU partisan, and the UND partisan. NDSU has already brought the Summit the attention of the first two groups and a small share of the third. Adding UND would get the rest of the North Dakota sports fans, but that remaining share isn't really that big. I'm sure the same is true for South Dakota.

Like I said at the top, it won't be the end of the world if the UxDs are invited to the Summit, but I'd rather they not. The UxD supporters, the local medias and some of the xDSU supporters all look at the issue through "Dakota" colored glasses; they all think what is good for their school is good for the Summit. That's not necessarily the case. Maybe the Summit presidents will see something they like when they meet in June, but I think the way the Sioux Falls media has reported the USD invite as a done deal is inappropriate. It shows an arrogance that is unbecoming. It says USD is so much better than the Summit that the conference will be lucky if the school stoops to accept the offer. I don't remember either of the xDSUs or their corresponding media markets acting the same way three and a half years ago.

[jackmd]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Like I said at the top, it won't be the end of the world if the UxDs are invited to the Summit, but I'd rather they not. The UxD supporters, the local medias and some of the xDSU supporters all look at the issue through "Dakota" colored glasses; they all think what is good for their school is good for the Summit. That's not necessarily the case. Maybe the Summit presidents will see something they like when they meet in June, but I think the way the Sioux Falls media has reported the USD invite as a done deal is inappropriate. It shows an arrogance that is unbecoming. It says USD is so much better than the Summit that the conference will be lucky if the school stoops to accept the offer. I don't remember either of the xDSUs or their corresponding media markets acting the same way three and a half years ago.

Hard to argue with your points. I can't speak for anyone outside of the SU's but as I have made it clear I see no benefit to adding USD at this time. It just doesn't make sense. I again heard a lot of talk about what will happen at USD to solidify their commitment to DI but I haven't seen the concrete being poured or even the building plans being submitted, doesn't mean they aren't I just haven't seen them. If the attraction is the Dakota Dome for indoor track I'm not buying that. Perhaps the USD or UND fans can enlighten me, I just don't see why the Summit should ask them to join at this time.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Additionally, adding the UxDs doesn't help the conference where we need it most: men's basketball.

I believe the conference is looking even farther out than 3-5 years.

The UxDs offer a lot of the 'back story' that the Summit League just does not have.

They also bring better fan support than most of the Summit schools.

Finally, while they may impact =conference RPI=, as you've pointed out, conference RPI doesn't mean what it used to in terms of NCAA bids.

Also, as the women have shown, you can get respect and rankings playing in a pretty subpar conference. And to be honest, SDSU's women are ranked far higher than any Summit men's team is likely to be ranked anytime in the foreseeable future.

To sum up:

UxDs reduce conference RPI, yes, but more importantly provide history, stability, fan support, and media coverage.

[JackJD]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I think its inevitable that the UXDs will be invited into the Summit League near the end of transition (and assuming UND has its name controversy behind it). My wish is that the UXDs were in a different conference than the XDSUs. It think it is guaranteed that in two or three years, the XDSUs and the UXDs will be on one another's schedules in football and M & W basketball.

Like Hammersmith, I'm not going to be overly upset if the UXDs are invited into the Summit but I'd prefer they find their own path.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Like Hammersmith, I'm not going to be overly upset if the UXDs are invited into the Summit but I'd prefer they find their own path.

As time goes by, I think most fans will come to the conclusion that there are dang few substitutes for 100 year rivalries out there.

SDSU and USD played the country's first 'state/u' game in 1889. It's, IMO, short sighted to toss that, based on bad feelings from the past 5 years.

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I credit the Summit for seeing what too many xDSU fans cannot because they're too close to the situation.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

As time goes by, I think most fans will come to the conclusion that there are dang few substitutes for 100 year rivalries out there.

SDSU and USD played the country's first 'state/u' game in 1889. It's, IMO, short sighted to toss that, based on bad feelings from the past 5 years.

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I credit the Summit for seeing what too many xDSU fans cannot because they're too close to the situation.

I suppose there is some value in that, but I put it way, way, way down on my list. And it's not bad feelings why I would rather not see the UxDs in the Summit. My bad feelings were directed at individuals, not the institution, and all those individuals, save one, are gone(in UND's case). As for restarting the rivalries, why do they have to be in the same conference to do that? Wouldn't be better for the rest of the conference for the xDSUs to play the UxDs as regular non-conference games? The xDSUs get the big crowd and gate to improve the Summit's total attendance figures, while the other members don't have to make the additional expensive trips to the Dakotas.

My best case scenario for this June will be if the Summit presidents do not vote on expansion but give USD encouragement that they will eventually be invited if they field competitive programs by the end of their transition. That puts the onus on USD without hurting the Summit. If USD shows that they can compete and are working toward being a solid mid-major program in most sports, then their addition would benefit the conference. If they fall flat on their face during the transition, then the Summit isn't saddled with them for the long term. The Summit can help them out by encouraging member schools to schedule them, but it would be in the form of suggestions and not requirements. All the same would go for UND once the nickname issue is resolved.

Zooropa, you are getting pretty close in your attitude to one of the most infamous posters in the tri-state region: MplsBison. When someone disagrees with you on this topic, you automatically assume it's because of bad feelings. You have to acknowledge that there are some valid reasons NOT to invite the UxDs into the Summit(travel costs, weak MBB programs, etc.). Now you may feel that the positives outweigh the negatives, but those of us that feel the opposite also have good reasons for doing so that have little or nothing to do with past actions by the UxDs and their supporters.

(1)UxDs reduce conference RPI, yes, but more importantly provide (2)history, (3)stability, (4)fan support, and (5)media coverage.

My take:
(1) While conference RPI is not as big a deal as it was a few years ago, it's still the only metric that absolutely everyone looks at. Until the mid- and low-majors figure out a new, objective way to improve their profiles, RPI will remain the generally accepted benchmark. That makes it of the highest category of importance.
(2) I don't buy it. Every history starts somewhere. NDSU and SDSU played one another for roughly 100 years and our rivalry didn't take off until the DI move. But once it took off, it grew rapidly. History has much less importance than competitiveness. At NDSU, we're starting to dislike UNI pretty quickly. And that has far less to do with UNI's shared time in the old NCC as it does with NDSU wanting to knock of the current big dog. If UND and USD come in and stink up the place, few will care about any "history".
(3) If adding the UxDs pushes other members out, how does that improve stability? Forcing the southern and eastern schools to make additional trips to the Dakotas is just going to alienate them. Push them too hard, and they might just say "to heck with it". I'm coming to like this conference, I'd hate for the adding of the xDSUs to be the first step in the eventual conversion to a bastardized NCC.
(4) This one I'll give you. The UxDs will draw better than several of the non-Dakota Summit members. Is it enough?
(5) This one I won't give you. Who covers USD? Who covers SDSU? It's the Argus Leader in both cases, right? Or it's the same radio and TV market, right? It's not like SDSU is in the western half of the state and USD is in the eastern. You both share the same media market so adding USD won't make an appreciable difference. This situation in North Dakota is only slightly different. The Fargo media already carries a little UND, and most of the radio and TV stations that broadcast in Grand Forks are actually repeaters for Fargo signals. Since both media markets already are getting NDSU info, adding UND only helps a small amount.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

if the Summit presidents do not vote on expansion but give USD encouragement that they will eventually be invited if they field competitive programs by the end of their transition.

Or, perhaps, 'we'll accept you in 2011 if you've fully funded your programs, and your staff'?

while the other members don't have to make the additional expensive trips to the Dakotas.

A two division conference takes some of the sting out of travel expenses.

For instance, once a year, an east division team goes, not to NDSU/SDSU, but to either USD/SDSU or UND/NDSU

When someone disagrees with you on this topic, you automatically assume it's because of bad feelings.

For a lot of (but notice that I did not say -all-) fans, it's my experience that this is the case.

I don't assume that it's bad feelings in your case, but it is openly acknowledged as bad feelings for many on this board (and Bisonville).

If adding the UxDs pushes other members out, how does that improve stability?

Arguably, by dividing the conference into two divisions it doesn't necessarily push other schools out. In fact, by eliminating the UMKC/SUU swing for the eastern schools (WIU, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW) you're making their life a little simpler.... (travel to North Dakota/South Dakota, alternating, and UMKC/SUU alternating).

It's the Argus Leader in both cases, right? Or it's the same radio and TV market, right? It's not like SDSU is in the western half of the state and USD is in the eastern. You both share the same media market so adding USD won't make an appreciable difference.

True, but you get that much more coverage, that many more tickets sold for conference tournaments.

By contrast, if you were to add, (picking a school at random) Detroit-Mercy (if they still call it that), would you raise the Summit League profile that much in the Detroit media? Would you increase awareness and support of the Summit League among the same number of people as you would if you added the UxDs? I would argue not. And people are people.

That increased media coverage creates additional sponsorship opportunities for the league as well.......

[SturgisJeff]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Or, perhaps, 'we'll accept you in 2011 if you've fully funded your programs, and your staff'?

A two division conference takes some of the sting out of travel expenses.

For instance, once a year, an east division team goes, not to NDSU/SDSU, but to either USD/SDSU or UND/NDSU

For a lot of (but notice that I did not say -all-) fans, it's my experience that this is the case.

I don't assume that it's bad feelings in your case, but it is openly acknowledged as bad feelings for many on this board (and Bisonville).

Arguably, by dividing the conference into two divisions it doesn't necessarily push other schools out. In fact, by eliminating the UMKC/SUU swing for the eastern schools (WIU, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW) you're making their life a little simpler.... (travel to North Dakota/South Dakota, alternating, and UMKC/SUU alternating).

True, but you get that much more coverage, that many more tickets sold for conference tournaments.

By contrast, if you were to add, (picking a school at random) Detroit-Mercy (if they still call it that), would you raise the Summit League profile that much in the Detroit media? Would you increase awareness and support of the Summit League among the same number of people as you would if you added the UxDs? I would argue not. And people are people.

That increased media coverage creates additional sponsorship opportunities for the league as well.......

From reading the OU blog site it doesn't sound like these two schools like each other very much.