Will UND be in the Summit?

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Maybe not a big deal... but going from maybe a 5 seed to sliding to a 8 seed you have to play a #1 seed in the second round vs. a #1 seed in the sweet sixteen.

Or from a #13 seed to the NIT.

RPI is still very important.

[West-River_Jack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I found the following over on the ORU Board. I thought it looked interesting so I brought it over here to try and muddy the waters a bit:

http://orusports.com/talk/index.php?...57587#msg57587

Yup! Stu Whitney even gets coverage on the ORU Board. When he reads this post it should really inflate his ego.

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Re: Stu Whitney's Blog - Argus Leader (3-6-2009)
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 11:03:42 AM » Quote

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Poor UMKC: much like their professional neighbors the Chiefs and the Royals (until '94), they're stuck as the eastern outpost of a vast western division in most of these 12-team scenarios.

The travel expenses alone would make them rethink D-1 status.

How about three 4-team pods, with a rotating schedule:

1. Play the teams in your 4-team pod home-and-home every year.
2. Play home-and-home each season with the teams in one of the other pods, for two years.
3. Play one game only each year with the teams in the remaining pod, home-and-home over two years.

Here are your divisions:

NORTHERN POD: NDSU, NDU, SDSU, SDU
WESTERN POD: Southern Utah, ORU, Centenary, UMKC
EASTERN POD: IPFW, Oakland, IUPUI, Western Illinois

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[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The pod idea has some merit to it, I think . . . but whoever gets SUU in their pod is still kind of jobbed, geographically speaking.

Best bet IMHO is to somehow convince the Big Sky to admit SUU, or failing that, to bring Utah Valley in as a travel partner and make the Summit a much more midwestern league.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

This will never happen, but how about this:

Say goodbye to Centenary and SUU, setting up a more geographically friendly conference.

Summit West:
UND
NDSU
SDSU
USD
UMKC
ORU

You could do the UMKC and ORU trip in one. KC to Tulsa is 4.5 hours. SDSU and USD could even do the whole trip in a bus.

Summit East:
WIU
IUPUI
IPUFW
Oakland
E. Illinois (currently in Ohio Valley)
Chicago State (currently a Independent)

[KUlawJack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I understand the argument that adding the UxDs benefits the XDSUs but it really doesn't benefit our other members. UND is not a quick bus trip from KC. Its a 10 hour bus trip. That's a long way. Its three times as far as UMKC's trips to Western and Tulsa (which is quite a bit closer). Heck, Centenary is closer for ORU, Western, and UMKC. IUPUI and IPFW are closer to UMKC, ORU, and Centenary than UND is. I highly doubt any of those are bus trips.

My point is the geographic argument is a weak one for other parts of our conference, even though it is a strong argument for the Us and the SUs.

As much as we may be the future of the conference (I like to think we will be) there are many schools that might not feel the same.

EDIT: 500 Posts! Woo!

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

If (and when) you add UND, UND and NDSU will be the new Thursday-Saturday roadtrip and SDSU and USD will be the new Thursday-Saturday roadtrip. So even if UMKC and others have to fly into Fargo or Grand Forks there is now two schools within an hour of each other. Fly into SF and you have two school within two hours of each other.

Two flights = four games.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Going to North Dakota for a basketball weekend would be a blast! Lots of fun had during the old NCC days.

I would just assume not be back in a conference with USD and UND but it is probably ineveitable and the best thing for the conference. KULawJack has a point regearding geography but outside of that they would add to the conference. UND obviously have to get the mascot issue fixed but after that they have a lot to offer. USD doesn't have as much but they have more to offer then Centenary or UMKC IMHO.

Whatever will happen will happen.

GB, GB, GJ!

SUPERBUNNY

[Lakesbison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

NO UND!!

NO UND!!

NO UND!!

in all honesty, as much as I dislike SDSU, UND fans are miserable losers, with no life. all they do is try and bring everyone else down to thier septic level.

please, no!

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Market-wise, it's really a shame that MSU-Mankato and/or St. Cloud didn't move up. They'd bring a piece of the Minneapolis/St. Paul market with them--at least, better exposure in that top-20 TV market. With one or both of those schools, and the four Dakota schools, you've got the geographic nucleus of a pretty stable mid-major D-I league.

It's utter speculation as to what the NCAA will do, but I've heard some rumblings that the NCAA, when they lift the D-I membership moratorium, won't allow a school to move up to D-I without an invite from a conference. Now I know that it would be a political minefield for one of the Minn. State schools to move up in Gopherland, but on the other hand, if one or both schools had an invitation on the table from a D-I league with ND and SD schools in it, I think that would be hard for even the most rabid U of M fans to successfully thwart.

Just blue-skying right now . . . (and please don't mistake this for pining for the NCC days). But look at MSU-Mankato and at St. Cloud and they look a LOT like mid-major D-I schools such as the state-supported Missouri Valley schools. And it's ridiculous that a state as large as Minnesota supports only one D-I team (yes, NDSU and SDSU draw some support from W. Minnesota, I know).

End of stream-of-consciousness post.

[OKC_Poke]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

in all honesty, as much as I dislike SDSU, UND fans are miserable losers, with no life. all they do is try and bring everyone else down to thier septic level.

LOL You should see OU fans down here in Oklahoma. They cornered the market especially when the football team wins the Big 12 then just sits there and act like Homer Simpson during their BCS bowl game losses.

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Bring them in. We have two options to continue up the DI ladder....Leave or make the Summit better and honestly it might be easier to improve the Summit than get into the MVC.

If you can give me two schools that bring more to the table than UND and USD lets hear them.

Seriously, I think the conference knows its history and for a change is taking a proactive approach. Sure they could wait around for UND and USD but I think they like what NDSU and SDSU have brought in and see adding UND and USD as a way of building on that foundation.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Market-wise, it's really a shame that MSU-Mankato and/or St. Cloud didn't move up.

Flip side:

Them being D-2 enables the Dakota schools to recruit in Minnesota as D-1 alternatives to the U of M.

Consider: Minnesota + Dakotas = 6.5M people and 5 D-1 schools, or a ratio that's better than Nebraska's (2 schools, 1.7M) and Iowa's (3M, 4 schools)

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Flip side:

Them being D-2 enables the Dakota schools to recruit in Minnesota as D-1 alternatives to the U of M.

Consider: Minnesota + Dakotas = 6.5M people and 5 D-1 schools, or a ratio that's better than Nebraska's (2 schools, 1.7M) and Iowa's (3M, 4 schools)

Well, kind of.

On average in the US there's about 1 D-I basketball program for every 873,000 or so people (303 million people, 347 or so D-I programs, Minnesota (5.1 m) + Dakotas (750k + 630k) should on average have around 7 or eight D-I schools, so even including the four Dakota schools, the Minn-SD-ND market is relatively under-served for D-I programs.

(And no, sorry, D-I hockey played by schools in the D-II classification does not make those schools Division I--just go ask the NCAA about that if you disagree.)

But I'm thinking of market share and media exposure--getting on Fox Sports North and that sort of thing. I'm quite confident that it would be easier to do that if your league has one or two in-state teams, vs. only teams in neighboring states whose schools are huddling against the western Minn. border. That's my main point.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Counters and the NCAA auto bid will rule the day. If the southern schools want to flex their muscle, they can and there really is nothing that can be done about it. Their threat of exploring other possibilities will probably put off formal expansion invites to USD. I know there is the possibility of getting a waiver from the NCAA for the conference, but that is risky. Do you really think CBS would not prefer to have a 64 field, instead of a 65 field. In fact, the NCAA may be in favor of it also.

At some point in the future, USD & UND may be invited into the league, and quite frankly after they have completed transition it would seem likely to me. At that time, if I remember correctly, at least one more school becomes a counter and the auto-bid is more secure.

Remember, after the site visit all the buzz was that the league was going to vote and announce USD as the newest member at the tournament. That got pushed back to the June meeting because so much would be going on at the tournament. Now the latest is that it is likely to be on the agenda at the June meeting, but there is no guarantee that a vote or decision will be made. You see the pattern here? I do, we went through this with the Big Sky. Nothing is definite.

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I don't think the Summit League will ever, ever, EVER give a definite "NO" to USD. At some point USD might get a "yes" but they'll never, ever get a "no." The league might just keep putting the decision off for 3 months or 6 months at a time . . . for very reasonable-sounding reasons, or possibly for no reasons at all.

Or they may go ahead and invite USD sooner rather than later, for full membership in 2012-13.

Nobody really knows except maybe the 10 Summit League member Presidents, and I'm guessing they don't even know for sure right now.

My best guess is that if the current situation does not change, Douple and the Summit League will keep stringing USD (and the panting Sioux Falls press) along for a while--possibly several years.

From the Presidents' point of view, keeping USD on the hook is cheap insurance against another unexpected departure from the league. But the Summit League schools aren't going to want to share their small portion of the NCAA money they get unless there's some positive benefit to a majority of them.

Right now, sharing the NCAA money 10 ways looks better than sharing it 11 or 12 ways. So (again given no changes in Summit League or surrounding conference memberships) there's no immediate benefit to the league of a USD membership any time soon.

But things could change real fast if any number of things happen--from current Summit members dropping out or leaving for other conferences, or something happens like (on a more far-fetched but still possible scenario) the Missouri Valley suddenly splits into two--the public, football-playing schools and the private basketball schools--maybe a domino effect of the A-10 or the Colonial or the Horizon poaching one or more basketball schools from the Valley. Who knows what the future might bring?

So I think stringing USD along is something of an insurance policy for the Summit, without the actual cost of bringing them in immediately as a member. USD isn't very likely to go elsewhere, after all.

As far as the immediate thread topic, UND: everything I mention about USD applies to UND, with the added disadvantages of geography and, of course, the name problem, which provides an excuse for the league to keep UND at a bit further distance from the league--because UND is even less likely than USD to find another conference home other than the Summit League, and I think everybody knows it.