Will UND be in the Summit?

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

What filbert said is exactly the way I feel about it(if that wasn't clear enough before ).

[joeboo22]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I think Filbert is right, why have UXD's join now when if we offer them in 3 years they are going to accept and for those 3 years they are useless anyways....

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I'm confident they will vote on USD within the year, it is kind of bush league to string out a school like that, and it strikes me as something you don't want to do to a potential member. I know getting that treatment from the Big Sky rubbed Bison fans the wrong way, not sure about you guys though.

I remember the league seemed kind of dissapointed about losing SIU-Edwardsville and that is why I don't think they'll wait to long if they really like the UXD's.

[joeboo22]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I'm confident they will vote on USD within the year, it is kind of bush league to string out a school like that, and it strikes me as something you don't want to do to a potential member. I know getting that treatment from the Big Sky rubbed Bison fans the wrong way, not sure about you guys though.

I remember the league seemed kind of dissapointed about losing SIU-Edwardsville and that is why I don't think they'll wait to long if they really like the UXD's.

The difference though is SIU-Edwardsville was being approached by numerous conferences.... USD and UND? Unless the Big Sky wants them I don't see a conference other then the Summit taking them on during transition.... Then ask the question why take them on when they are in transition when they can wait until they are out of transition or in there last year of transition and take them on?

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The difference though is SIU-Edwardsville was being approached by numerous conferences.... USD and UND? Unless the Big Sky wants them I don't see a conference other then the Summit taking them on during transition.... Then ask the question why take them on when they are in transition when they can wait until they are out of transition or in there last year of transition and take them on?

Neither one will set foot on a Summit court until they have one year left to go like we did.
But if the league gets USD to commit they can start getting on board with the Summit plan and there is no doubt having a conference locked up will make them a stronger member once they do come into the league.

Plus they are locked in and UND would be completely isolated, no conference is going to add just UND.

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I'm confident they will vote on USD within the year, it is kind of bush league to string out a school like that, and it strikes me as something you don't want to do to a potential member. I know getting that treatment from the Big Sky rubbed Bison fans the wrong way, not sure about you guys though.

I remember the league seemed kind of dissapointed about losing SIU-Edwardsville and that is why I don't think they'll wait to long if they really like the UXD's.

See, the question that those who've taken the position you have must answer is "what's in it for the current Summit League members to take USD in now? What's in it for Centenary? What does Oral Roberts gain?"

Too many people seem to think that what they think should dominate the thinking of the Presidents of (for instance) Oakland and IUPUI.

I'm not saying that you're in that category, FargoBison, but really . . . what is the tangible, bottom-line advantage to IPFW of bringing USD in right now? As opposed to letting them wriggle on the hook for a year or two?

Where else is USD going to go?

Now, you can make arguments that it's in SDSU's and NDSU's interest to bring USD in, but even if those arguments are correct in every respect, that's just two votes out of ten. What's the positive incentive for the other eight schools?

I'm not saying it's right or comfortable for USD fans, but the reality is that the Summit League, right now, doesn't need USD at all. Not one little tiny bit.

But that situation could change rapidly at a moment's notice. So, the league takes out some insurance, by stringing USD along.

Oh, I think they'll get into the league eventually. But it may take longer than some folks want, or expect. And I'm sure that something unexpected will happen in the next 24 months that will probably precipitate the league pulling the trigger. But for now, there's no need--not like the MidCon needed to add IPFW, SDSU and NDSU after Valparaiso bolted for the Horizon, and Chicago State lept (or was pushed) into D-I Independent Hell.

That's all I'm saying.

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I understand what you are saying, and honestly I have never understood why the league rushed to visit USD because they weren't going anywhere. I'll just say that right away.

I guess what the other presidents think is the real wild card, I suppose it all hangs on their opinion of a divisional setup. I could see how some might like it but I have no idea how much. I suppose we will find out in July, but I bet the league offers some kind of tangiable statement. You don't visit a school(which in my mind shows serious interest) and then not say anything about them getting or not getting in for three years.

I have no clue where USD could go but the Big East shake up is something all conferences are at least thinking about and I'm sure none want to be unprepared. The MWC could also expand and create a western shake up.

[filbert]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The problem with a divisional setup given the current Summit League setup is that at least two of the existing schools (along with NDSU and SDSU, for purposes of discussion) will be stuck with an annual Utah trip in all divisional sports, while the other conference members won't.

I'm not sure you can overestimate the distaste that the current league members have for the annual trip to Southern Utah (excepting maybe NDSU and SDSU, who both see it as a lot like the old NCC Northern Colorado trip, with just another hour or so on a plane and another hour or so in a bus).

Now, this may actually be an argument that the eastern schools might indeed favor adding, say USD and Utah Valley, then sticking UMKC and Oral Roberts with the annual Utah trip, but I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall of the Presidents' meeting where that was being discussed.

I guess what I'm really arguing is that we in the Dakotas have a certain view of the favorability of USD and UND, one which might not necessarily be shared by at least eight of the ten current Summit League members. It's instructive I think to try to look at things from the point of view of the other members of the league.

[OKC_Poke]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The MWC could also expand and create a western shake up.

I've been keeping my ear to the MWC expansion rumors since I root for Wyoming. There has been some noise about the MWC adding Fresno and Boise. Some wants a 12-team league but no one has a clue who'll be the 12th team. The favoite is Nevada since travel costs will keep Hawaii out of the MWC.

A buddy told me the other day that Central Washington wants to move up and join the Big Sky.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I understand what you are saying, and honestly I have never understood why the league rushed to visit USD because they weren't going anywhere. I'll just say that right away.

...

I suppose we will find out in July, but I bet the league offers some kind of tangiable statement. You don't visit a school(which in my mind shows serious interest) and then not say anything about them getting or not getting in for three years.

First part: I think some schools have been told you need to show up at meetings.

Second part: They won't say nothing. There will be a statement like this, "While we are not foreclosing any possible invitations in the future, the members of the Summit League have determined that at this time the issue of expansion will be tabled for the time being due to the needs of the member institutions to focus on other priorities. The decision at this time does not preclude the issue from being renewed at any time and should not be interpreted as an indication that any of the institutions that have been formally or informally reviewed do not meet membership criteria."

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Flibert to me this comment from one the league officials just makes me think that something is going on here...

3:29
[Comment From JackFlash]
Who are the viable candidates, as you see it now, for expansion?
3:30
MKL: We already made a visit to USD, and I think potentially if we could get both those Dakotas in we would be at a nice even number and be able to do some things and be secure and probably wouldn't look much further for a while.

That statement makes me think the league wants the UXDs. That comment, saying Denver is not in our footprint, and the quick visit to USD just seems to point to a feeling that the league likes what our schools brought to the league and they want to be proactive in ensuring they can build on it. Maybe I am reading too far into this stuff but it seems like the league office wants this to happen.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

Flibert to me this comment from one the league officials just makes me think that something is going on here...



That statement makes me think the league wants the UXDs. That comment, saying Denver is not in our footprint, and the quick visit to USD just seems to point to a feeling that the league likes what our schools brought to the league and they want to be proactive in ensuring they can build on it. Maybe I am reading too far into this stuff but it seems like the league office wants this to happen.

But, as a fellow NDSU fan, you must be well aware that what the league commissioner wants isn't necessarily what will happen. Fullerton was all about adding NDSU and SDSU in his talks with the media. But when the presidents met, we were on the outside looking in.

One other little thing to think about is the small number of RPI/SOS boosters in the Summit. If you go to a 2-division setup, ORU, Oakland, NDSU and any other program that steps up won't be playing all the others every year. NDSU might play Oakland, but not ORU in a particular year. That would hurt NDSU's conference SOS, which is already pretty darn low, and also ORU's. It would hurt every conference member looking for a 12/13/14-seed coming out of the Summit championship. It wouldn't be to the same level as the travel issues that filbert laid out, but it would be like a "death by a thousand paper cuts".

[FargoBison]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

But, as a fellow NDSU fan, you must be well aware that what the league commissioner wants isn't necessarily what will happen. Fullerton was all about adding NDSU and SDSU in his talks with the media. But when the presidents met, we were on the outside looking in.

One other little thing to think about is the small number of RPI/SOS boosters in the Summit. If you go to a 2-division setup, ORU, Oakland, NDSU and any other program that steps up won't be playing all the others every year. NDSU might play Oakland, but not ORU in a particular year. That would hurt NDSU's conference SOS, which is already pretty darn low, and also ORU's. It would hurt every conference member looking for a 12/13/14-seed coming out of the Summit championship. It wouldn't be to the same level as the travel issues that filbert laid out, but it would be like a "death by a thousand paper cuts".

I was actually going to post something about Fullerton but I deleted it. So I do see your point, Fullerton was absolutely driven to get NDSU into the league and he had MSU's president right on his side. I guess we'll find out if there are any Sac St's out there to thwart that drive to get the UXD's in.

I do see what you are saying about RPI, that is an area where the league could be moving into murky territory.

I still think things will become clearer in July. There is no doubt the league office is going to sell it so it should be interesting to see what happens.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

It's instructive I think to try to look at things from the point of view of the other members of the league.

Hard to understand how anything other than conference RPI would be an issue.

Adding the UxDs means no annual flight to Cedar City for the eastern schools. Also, there's this to consider:

The Summit voted to add SDSU & NDSU, and created a whole mess of new travel complications. Why, then, would existing membership, plus SDSU and NDSU, vote against an expansion that doesn't materially change travel costs (assuming a two division split)?

Second -- regarding the 'fewer RPI quality opponents', try this:

Bring back the holiday tournament.

Consider: Currently the Summit runs an 18 game season.

If you do 5 home and homes in your division (10 games) and 6 games against the other division, that's 16 games.

Now if you do a seeded Holiday invitational you could have a champion declared in 4 games (3 games for the top 4 seeds).

That does cost you two non-conf games as compared to the existing schedule, and it would be tricky to seed

Coaches, also, may not want the stress of 3-4 games (since top seeds would get byes) played on a Thursday (or even Wednesday) to Sunday stretch.....

Hosting would rotate, and you could either have M & W together, or they could rotate separately.

Again, total blue-sky stuff here, but a holiday tournament would give top teams from opposite divisions a chance to square off for something meaningful at (roughly) the start of the conference season. It would be another promotable event, and it would do a fair bit more to 'bring together' what is always going to be a sprawling conference.

[joeboo22]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I've never liked East-West conferences.... First of all it screws up seeding for the tournament, do you go 1A-4B or do you seed them 1-8 or how do you do it.... plus I think every conference should play each other twice... Second of all, you'll never here the conference publically mention Denver as long as Denver is a member of another conference... Its funny how even conferences that are trying to kick out members cry foul when another conference mentions that school.... If Denver is wanted they'll just become members.... 3rd. I just don't see why now, the leaders of the conference who I classify as Oakland, IUPUI and Oral Roberts, want to make another trip to the Dakota's each year, to play transitional teams that take money from the conference, make the schedule strength weaker, and aren't a real threat of leaving for another conference (atleast at how things stands now)... And from what I can tell, I'd think it'd be odd for SDSU, NDSU and IPFW as newcomers to do anything but follow the lead of others.... SUU probably wouldn't care about coming to the Dakota's but I doubt Centenary would like to come.... I think if everything went best for USD these are the votes you would get (SDSU, NDSU, IPFW, UMKC, SUU) I don't know what the rules are for ties but I'd be guessing that (Oakland, Oral Roberts and IUPUI) have a lil more pull then the others..... just a guess though, I really don't know....