Joe Paterno Passes

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Can't. It's already been said by the NCAA that it doesn't go under that and therefore can't punish them for "lack of institutional control"

Fine. But the NCAA could still punish them if they wanted to. If it doesn't happen, then it will be because the NCAA doesn't want to, not because it can't.

[EQguy]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Thought everyone on here was probably waiting for me to weigh in on this decision so here goes...

Seems to me that the Freeh report (based on what I have inferred from what I have heard mind you) is a convenient result. Lets just go ahead and blame the 4 people that are already on the hook in one way or another and call it good to protect the university as much as possible.
Why is Paterno solely to blame for not going to the Police? What about McQuery? Don't say he was young or afraid for his job. There is no excuse for allowing that type of behavior to continue I don't care who you are you have to know right from wrong and stand up regardless of the consequences. He is as criminally wrong as Paterno and the other 3 in my mind but he continually gets left out of the conversation.
Why is the football team the sole target for death penalty? Last I looked the AD and President were also involved so shouldn't we shut down all athletics? What about the business school or one of the Colleges? I know that is far fetched but my point is this is not just a football problem. This was bigger than that.
To me the best punishment at this point would be to ban the three remaining members of this group from ever being employed at an NCAA institution. Not that this may not happen naturally I think the NCAA needs to start focusing things in the right direction.

[NoVaJack]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Thought everyone on here was probably waiting for me to weigh in on this decision so here goes...

Seems to me that the Freeh report (based on what I have inferred from what I have heard mind you) is a convenient result. Lets just go ahead and blame the 4 people that are already on the hook in one way or another and call it good to protect the university as much as possible.
Why is Paterno solely to blame for not going to the Police? What about McQuery? Don't say he was young or afraid for his job. There is no excuse for allowing that type of behavior to continue I don't care who you are you have to know right from wrong and stand up regardless of the consequences. He is as criminally wrong as Paterno and the other 3 in my mind but he continually gets left out of the conversation.
Why is the football team the sole target for death penalty? Last I looked the AD and President were also involved so shouldn't we shut down all athletics? What about the business school or one of the Colleges? I know that is far fetched but my point is this is not just a football problem. This was bigger than that.
To me the best punishment at this point would be to ban the three remaining members of this group from ever being employed at an NCAA institution. Not that this may not happen naturally I think the NCAA needs to start focusing things in the right direction.

Paterno was not solely blamed. But IMHO he got exactly what he should have gotten as a result of the new revelations in the report.
And this is far from over:
.
1. The three mentioned above are almost certainly facing civil and crimial trials, potentially more indictments, and possible jail time, so the NCAA banning them from future employment is a moot point. Who would hire them anyway? And if there is one thing worse than a pedophile in prison, it may be an enabler of the pedophile who had the power to stop him, but didn't. Their future on earth is potentially worse than anything Paterno faced in his final months.
2. To paraphrase Churchill, this is barely the end of the beginning. There will be trials/pleadings, both civil and criminal, involving all three, and potentially more. Will McQueary be named in civil suits? I'd guess yes. Not sure how you can say he was as criminally liable as Paterno since it is not nearly as clear that he lied under oath as it is with Paterno and the others. Is McQueary as morally culpable? Certainly.
3. McQueary is already paying and may pay more. He did not have his contract renewed and was not interviewed for the report at the request of the Pennsylvania AG's office. Maybe the lawyers on this board can speculate why that happened, but it seems to me he will either be called as a witness or has been named a target of ongoing investigations - or both. And would you hire him?
4. The report cited failures and culpability from the president of the university down to the janitor who failed to report what he saw. The report criticized the "culture of reverence" in no uncertain terms. While it is fair to say that the blame was centered on the four, I don't think you can read the report and not come away feeling this was an extremely harsh condemnation of the entire system.
5. The focus was on the top four because almost all of the news in the report centered around them. The stuff about McQueary and the janitors was already known, and indeed was part of the evidence in the Sandusky trial. The news in the Freeh report were the previously undisclosed emails and notes that showed that Paterno had far greater knowledge and involvement than he had acknowledged, both to the grand jury and in interviews with the Washington Post's Sally Jenkins. As a result of the new revelations, Paterno went from aging, clueless bystander to what appears to be an active participant and even leader of a coverup. The Free report's new revelations also freshly bolster the perjury claims against the two already indicted, and they revealed a paper trail that is almost certain to get Spanier indicted.

[jackdaniel]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Paterno was not solely blamed. But IMHO he got exactly what he should have gotten as a result of the new revelations in the report.
And this is far from over:
.
1. The three mentioned above are almost certainly facing civil and crimial trials, potentially more indictments, and possible jail time, so the NCAA banning them from future employment is a moot point. Who would hire them anyway? And if there is one thing worse than a pedophile in prison, it may be an enabler of the pedophile who had the power to stop him, but didn't. Their future on earth is potentially worse than anything Paterno faced in his final months.
2. To paraphrase Churchill, this is barely the end of the beginning. There will be trials/pleadings, both civil and criminal, involving all three, and potentially more. Will McQueary be named in civil suits? I'd guess yes. Not sure how you can say he was as criminally liable as Paterno since it is not nearly as clear that he lied under oath as it is with Paterno and the others. Is McQueary as morally culpable? Certainly.
3. McQueary is already paying and may pay more. He did not have his contract renewed and was not interviewed for the report at the request of the Pennsylvania AG's office. Maybe the lawyers on this board can speculate why that happened, but it seems to me he will either be called as a witness or has been named a target of ongoing investigations - or both. And would you hire him?
4. The report cited failures and culpability from the president of the university down to the janitor who failed to report what he saw. The report criticized the "culture of reverence" in no uncertain terms. While it is fair to say that the blame was centered on the four, I don't think you can read the report and not come away feeling this was an extremely harsh condemnation of the entire system.
5. The focus was on the top four because almost all of the news in the report centered around them. The stuff about McQueary and the janitors was already known, and indeed was part of the evidence in the Sandusky trial. The news in the Freeh report were the previously undisclosed emails and notes that showed that Paterno had far greater knowledge and involvement than he had acknowledged, both to the grand jury and in interviews with the Washington Post's Sally Jenkins. As a result of the new revelations, Paterno went from aging, clueless bystander to what appears to be an active participant and even leader of a coverup. The Free report's new revelations also freshly bolster the perjury claims against the two already indicted, and they revealed a paper trail that is almost certain to get Spanier indicted.

Whoever coined the phrase "culture of reverence" is right on the money.I've sensed that this phenomenon has been building up in the world of sports where iconic sports figures can do no wrong and are given God like status by the ever loving fan who reveres the very ground these people walk on.Even now,after all that has been revealed,there are people who try and justify things and insist that this is all blown out of porportion and that absolutly no form of punishment should be handed out,it's just an "unfortunate" incidence.But can someone tell me what "institutional control" was exhibited in this fiasco?If this isn't a case of "lack of institutional control",then what is?

[jackmd]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I think it goes well beyond Penn State into many other areas of our society. Take a look at almost any college campus and tell me athletes and coaches don't get preferential treatment and that those who try to expose scandals don't get muted, buried or fired and I'll say your fooling yourself. It happens in other "institutions" as well.

[bigticket1]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Fine. But the NCAA could still punish them if they wanted to. If it doesn't happen, then it will be because the NCAA doesn't want to, not because it can't.

Still not sure what the NCAA could impose that would be appropriate. At no point in this whole fiasco were any student athletes involved. Coaches and administrators committed criminal acts,but at no point did their actions give any sort of competitive advantage to any of their teams. There was definitely lack of institutional control but the athletic program received no competitive advantage because of it. Since no student athletes were involved ( current or previous ),would it fair to punish them by giving the death penalty ? Some type of financial penalty might be appropriate,but not sure if the NCAA can do that. The report last week will certainly result in Penn State paying strong financial penalties through the civil suits that will be filed by the victims. That will not make up for the horrible things that happened,but that and the criminal sentences that will result may be about all that can be done.

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

This whole incident is very sickening, no question about it. But it is because of this incident and those that happen similar to it at various universities and colleges across the country, that I was opposed to both our fine institutions to make the move to D-1. Once you did it, it left Abbott no choice but to make the same decision, but here is why I say this. We all have been guilty on this board, our board, and boards of other teams always wanting to get into a better league for this reason or for that reason. That's natural. But once you get there, it seems that you almost do what you have to do to maintain or advance. So if there was a problem in your program that had not yet been discovered by GQ Public, many times instititutions do whatever they can to keep it hidden or covered up for fear that it will prevent them from climbing upward and onward. I understand the Penn State fiasco is really bizarre and really sick, but i would venture to bet that there are several programs who have some dirty laundry they don't want aired out and the pressure of that is greater at the Division I level than anywhere else. Now that both programs are where we are, I pray to God that our presidents and fan base demand nothing but the running of a top not h program and one we can ALWAYS be proud of. No one is without temptation.

Sorry, have to weigh in on these comments YFE:
1) Whether you buy it, or like it, or not, I know for a fact that the most ardent supporters of SDSU going D-1 (from the president, the AD, and lots of people who were active in supporting our institution, were just as strongly interested (if not stronger) in the academic recognition as the athletic opportunities. SDSU's leadership felt we were a D-1 level university in fact, but not name. We wanted to be a Division 1 land-grant university just like all the other land-grant universities. That has been an accomplished fact now since we made the move and got settled in, and our research grants, and donor giving, and regional and national recognition of this has been phenomenal. No doubt there were doubters about our ability to compete athletically in D-1, which were strongly expressed by those against the move.

2) Certainly as JackMD noted, problems can occur and do occur at other universities in the D-1 arena, but I strongly believe the problems are more inherent at the BCS level schools because of the huge football $$$$$ involved. I believe that FCS schools are just another level of Division 1, above Division II, with all the rights and opportunities of Division 1 available, but nowhere near the same pressure-cooker as at the BCS level. I think the presidents and AD's at our universities (both USD and SDSU) will keep their perspective and their programs on track. I'm glad we went D-1, I think it accomplished what we wanted, and I really don't care whether USD got "dragged" into it. They had a choice...when we went...and subsequently.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

These types of problems can/do occur at any institution where excellence achieved leads to an unhealthy reverence it has very little to do with DI, DII or sports whatsoever. There are multiple stories that can be told of elementary schools, high schools, all college divisions, churches, government agencies, hospitals, car dealers, banks, etc, etc, etc where someone gained too much authority and they screwed up.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. No single individual should have so much power, authority, and influence. There is a reason we elect a president every 4 years, and it ain't to fill cable news time.

From what I've heard, there are very, very, very few people who could have done as much good in Paterno's years at Penn State. There are many who would have done just as bad or worse. His problem, was that he no longer believed the rules applied to him. He made the rules, or at the very least pushed around those that did. He likely wouldn't even think he did anything wrong. Average, everyday people lie everyday, cheat on their taxes, are unfaithful, beat their kids, write bad checks, when there are real life consequences. What do we expect to happen when those consequences aren't actual boundaries anymore?

I know enough about myself and am honest enough to know it wouldn't be a good thing if I won the lottery, started the next facebook, or was the president of the United States. I don't think I would do what Sandusky did, but I don't think everything I did I would want my family and friends to know about. Almost anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool, IMO.

This whole situation makes me sick. Leave the statue up, hammer PSU with whatever penalties are possible, build a museum on campus telling this story. Penn State, every institution, and every person in America with influence should remember it. And all the regular people who give them that influence should remember it too.

Final thoughts. Sandusky is a really bad guy. The people in charge at Penn State blew it. Paterno had too much power and influence. And the Penn State fans and community deserves some blame for putting all those people into positions where their inner demons could run wild unchecked.

[Nidaros]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Somebody give the Jackrabbit a cowbell for crying out loud. Let him ring the crap out of that thing before the game, leading the team on the court, during timeouts, whenever he can and the game ins't in play.

You are your signature SF_Jack Fan. I would agree with most of your points in the prior post. Sandusky's trial and outcome are just the beginning. It appears to me Louie Fried, the Former FBI head, has given the NCAA a great deal to work with in fact may have save them money and investigated time. Silence and cover given to a sick pervert for a a decade will be costly and it may have wrecked a fine land grant university. To but USD and SDSU going D1 in the equation is a disservice. Both have come clean whenever an incident has occurred and there has never been anything close to the Sandusky affair at either institution. Even the fact that SDSU topped the 1million point in ticket revenue, does not suggest anything corrupt, but rather a genuine growth in athletics.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

Somebody give the Jackrabbit a cowbell for crying out loud. Let him ring the crap out of that thing before the game, leading the team on the court, during timeouts, whenever he can and the game ins't in play.

You are your signature SF_Jack Fan.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Everybody is talking about whether to take down the statue or leave it up. How about this:

Take the Paterno statue down, melt it into an ugly hunk of bronze, and put it back in the same spot. Don't touch the rest of the monument.



It is pretty ironic that the Paterno quote on that monument reads, "They ask me what I'd like written about me when I'm gone. I hope they write I made Penn State a better place, not just that I was a good football coach."

[Nidaros]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

What I was saying that its okay show enthusiasm but to follow blindiy, is a big mistake, when you consider all the cover ups that surround Sandusky. Pa Joe could have stop so much of this but choose to give cover instead. I like your signature by the way.

In 1985 when I trained for my Government Job which I spent 20 years working, I traveled with a employee from PA. We worked at a elec coop no different than any other in SD and surrounding area. My fellow employee was very modest but an enthusiastic alum and fan of PA Joe and company. He had received in the mail a book of chances from the Alumni Association and he thought an easy way to sell the chances were to lay the book on a table in the lunch room, with a note. I was skeptical,but my fellow employee knew the employees and thought them trustworthy. To my surprise by noon the book of chances were sold and all the money was there for Merv, my fellow employee to send back to the Alumni Assn. I just could not imagine any thing like that happening in SD being a D2 school at that time. Even coop employees many non-alums but great followers at that time of PSU football. Will PSU have that great following next year and following years? Some fans will hang on no matter what, but others a good experience has been ruined. I too feel the statue must go and should be melted down and sold for salvage.

[jackdaniel]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Everybody is talking about whether to take down the statue or leave it up. How about this:

Take the Paterno statue down, melt it into an ugly hunk of bronze, and put it back in the same spot. Don't touch the rest of the monument.



It is pretty ironic that the Paterno quote on that monument reads, "They ask me what I'd like written about me when I'm gone. I hope they write I made Penn State a better place, not just that I was a good football coach."

I'm surprised no one has repeated the joke going around about the statue,that Penn State has decided to keep the statue of Joe Pa, but move it so that it "looks the other way"

[jack power]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

One down....27 more to go

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/1...enn-state.html

[jackrabit1]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I posted this a few days ago on ESPN.com...

I don't think the football program at Penn State should go away permanently, but here's what should happen...

1) Death Penalty for two years... Plus Penn State loses its vote in the NCAA for four years
2) Reduction of scholarships by 20 for a minimum of five years.
3) 15-year Show Cause orders for the AD, plus any other Athletic Department members found to have been involved in covering this up.
4) 10-year bowl ban.

The point here is to keep the program going, but at a shadow of what it used to be... to serve as a reminder to other schools of the consequences of doing what Penn State did (or didn't do).

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I posted this a few days ago on ESPN.com...

So the NCAA is supposed to make an example, not do what is actually right to punish Penn State. Also, if you do that, the restaurants, hotels, gas stations and other busineses will lose money and you could see loss of jobs and businesses. Its more than just the football program(why punish the players?) its also the students, businesses and just plain people trying to make a living in this economy. Personally I don't really see what NCAA can do. Its not a competitive advantage and its not dealing with students, and tp be honest if the NCAA punishes them, it will overstep their bounderies and set new precedents on what the NCAA can punish you for. Where does it stop?