ND legislature and Sioux name

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I wonder if Kelley asked the Big Sky to send UND this letter. I think the UND administration is upset with the legislation, and now has formal letter on record to demonstrate the damage the legislation has done.

Some UND fans, or at least some regular posters on their fan message board, go absolutely tilt over Tom Douple and blame Douple for all sorts of bad things for commenting on the nickname issue. Some wondered in their writings whether UND President Kelly asked Douple to comment to give an additional reason to move on: the suggestion that the Summit would invite UND. (and we all know what happened: Big Sky to the rescue.)

UND's President Kelly has to deal with not only a divisive issue, but an issue that now will now take more time and generate more bad press with the potential to cause even greater damage to UND'S reputation. If somehow the ND legislative action is nullified in short order (how can that happen?), and the nickname is gone (as agreed to resolve the lawsuit), there will be some hotheads who will feel their "rights" were taken away and they will stop being UND fans.

Ouch. This is gonna leave a mark.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I had no idea that native groups had protested the UC-Davis/UND game last year. That's interesting.

Also, you know why the leaders of the 'keep the nickname' crowd were "surprised" by the concerns of other university presidents?

Because they've spent the last 5 years ignoring anyone who disagreed with them.

It's also interesting that the Big Sky would consider implementing NCAA level restrictions on UND: no playoff hosting, no logos/use of the nickname at conference events--including (presumably) home conference events....

And finally, Fullerton mentioned 'teh hockies'

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

...
Also, you know why the leaders of the 'keep the nickname' crowd were "surprised" by the concerns of other university presidents?

Because they've spent the last 5 years ignoring anyone who disagreed with them.

It's also interesting that the Big Sky would consider implementing NCAA level restrictions on UND: no playoff hosting, no logos/use of the nickname at conference events--including (presumably) home conference events....

So right on the first point. You almost have to admire the single-mindedness of some people. Too bad that kind of thinking cannot be channeled into something productive.

On the second point, I didn't read the Big Sky's position to suggest it would imose restrictions, I thought the Big Sky was basically saying it's going to have to look at kicking UND out of the Big Sky because one of the foundation points for admission was having the logo/nickname issue resolved (the settlement with the NCAA). UND is staring right in the face of having no conference. And now, every school will have a free shot on goal at refusing to schedule UND etc. It won't be "correct" to play UND if UND continues in its current direction.

Can a school be NAIA in all sports except hockey?

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I can't speak for anyone on BV but myself, but I think what was surprising about this was the lack of immediate warning. Many of us predicted something like this could eventually happen back when USD backed out of the Big Sky deal, and again when the nickname bill was in the ND legislature. Also, there are enough posters on BV & SS with connections to the universities that we normally get a heads up when something big is about to go down. We rarely get any details, but we know something is coming and normally whether it's good or bad news. In this case, nobody outside UND & the Big Sky knew anything until the Herald article hit the internet last night.

As for the reasons behind the letter, I think the two most likely scenarios have been posted here. The problem is that they are mutually exclusive and there is no concrete evidence to decide which one is correct. The Big Sky could be smarting from Fullerton's failed attempt to create the first FCS super-conference while destabilizing the Summit and MVFC at the same time. Not only did neither of these things happen, the attempt left the Big Sky arguably worse off with increased travel costs and an unwieldy number of schools(13 football, 11 full). Cancelling UND's invitation would solve a lot of their problems and the nickname issue and NCAA sanctions could be the cover they need.

On the other hand, the Big Sky could be helping UND and the SBoHE to get out of this nickname fiasco. You might not have heard, but Douple did come out and say that the hold on UND's application to the Summit was actually Kelley's idea for the same reason. Now, since Douple claimed this shortly after UND canceled the Summit site visit and accepted the Big Sky invite, you need to take it with a grain of salt. Still, I am certain the Summit hold was to help UND, not hurt them. This could be the same thing. Between this and the NCAA announcement that their policy hadn't changed and sanctions were indeed coming, it might provide enough political cover for the SBoHE to directly challenge the nickname law in the courts without getting roasted by the general ND citizen.

One of these cases may be true, but it can't be both. Either the Big Sky wants UND out or they want them in; can't have it both ways. And I have no clue which it is.

Lastly, you can let go of the notion that Al Carlson was actually doing this all along to hurt UND. His bill was a power play to hurt the SBoHE and increase the power of the legislature as well as increasing his own political standing. He didn't give a rat's ass whether it helped or hurt UND as long as any hurt was blamed at the SBoHE or the NCAA. UND was only a means to an end. He's already floating his name for our US House seat that will probably be vacant soon. I can only hope that someone finds a way to publicly tie this fiasco around his waist and dump him in the political equivalent of Lake Sakakawea*.



*or Lake Oahe if that floats your boat

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I didn't read the Big Sky's position to suggest it would imose restrictions

The letter says, "Certainly then, any sanction issued by the NCAA would also be observed by the Conference"

The NCAA's sanctions, as far as I know are the following:

- no merchandise sales at NCAA sanctioned events
- no uniforms carrying the offensive name or logo may be worn at NCAA sanctioned events
- no hosting of NCAA sanctioned events

I would assume the Big Sky would impose the same sanctions, which means no logo on UND uniforms or playing surfaces during conference events.

---

My thinking, based on the ND law, was that UND simply go by "North Dakota" and drop all references to the official nickname on media materials, uniforms, etc. The law, as far as I know, doesn't require UND to use the nickname on anything.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

As for the reasons behind the letter, I think the two most likely scenarios have been posted here.

Or, it could be a sort of generalized buyer's remorse.

[SturgisJeff]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

if I was a student at und I would be all for changing the name and mascot to something so outragous (sp) and catching, ie Long Beach and their slug nickname, that would have everyone and the press talking about it all over the country. the sales of merchandise, press exposure, the bragioso that "yeah, I'm a --------". opportunity knocks but the frozen heads in the north dont see it.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Lastly, you can let go of the notion that Al Carlson was actually doing this all along to hurt UND. His bill was a power play to hurt the SBoHE and increase the power of the legislature as well as increasing his own political standing. He didn't give a rat's ass whether it helped or hurt UND as long as any hurt was blamed at the SBoHE or the NCAA. UND was only a means to an end. He's already floating his name for our US House seat that will probably be vacant soon. I can only hope that someone finds a way to publicly tie this fiasco around his waist and dump him in the political equivalent of Lake Sakakawea*.



*or Lake Oahe if that floats your boat

It would be childish on Carlson's part to pull a trick like this as I don't think the guy is clairvoyent. He would have been clairvoyent to pull this off. Your reasons seem to fit what little I know about ND politics. Berg is headed for the US Senate unless the other party comes up with a viable candidate that can defeat good old Ricky ticky. Its amazing how this guy Berg hates the government that made him rich, namely Federal housing programs with low interest loans. Carlson seems to operate about the same way. Yes I listen Joe Hietkamp daily. Thats where I get most of my information, but I digress.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The letter says, "Certainly then, any sanction issued by the NCAA would also be observed by the Conference"


---

My thinking, based on the ND law, was that UND simply go by "North Dakota" and drop all references to the official nickname on media materials, uniforms, etc. The law, as far as I know, doesn't require UND to use the nickname on anything.

I see what you're saying about sanctions. My guess is UND will simply be uninvited based on significant change in circumstances, i.e. the legislature forcing retention of the Fighting Sioux nickname/logo. I cannot imagine the Big Sky keeping UND in the conference and then imposing sanctions (but, that's possible).

As far as the ND law goes, I believe it mandates retention of the name. I'll find a link to the legislation and post it.


ADDED: here's the pdf citation from the North Dakota legislature's website: http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-...0349-02000.pdf
It's a pretty short law...here's the text:

SECTION 1.

A new section to chapter 15-10 of the North Dakota Century Code is created and
enacted as follows:

University of North Dakota fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

The intercollegiate athletic teams sponsored by the university of North Dakota shall be known as
the university of North Dakota fighting Sioux. Neither the university of North Dakota nor the state board
of higher education may take any action to discontinue the use of the fighting Sioux nickname or the
fighting Sioux logo in use on January 1, 2011. Any actions taken by the state board of higher education
and the university of North Dakota before the effective date of this Act to discontinue the use of the
fighting Sioux nickname and logo are preempted by this Act. If the national collegiate athletic
association takes any action to penalize the university of North Dakota for using the fighting Sioux
nickname or logo, the attorney general shall consider filing a federal antitrust claim against that

association.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

You know---

What would happen if UND just dropped the nickname anyway?

Who is responsible for enforcing that law, and how would they enforce it?

Or what if UND put "Sioux" in tiny type somewhere in the media materials, sort of the way Nissan called the Altima the Stanza Altima the first year in the US (due to trademarking issues), they'd still be 'using' the Sioux nickname. Likewise, if they leave the logo on oh, I don't know, the ticket stubs, say.

[Prairiehaas]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Seems to me the Big Sky just revealed their support of the NCAA "nuclear option" reagarding this issue. I would expect there is or will be a few high level discussions between the Big Sky, UND and ND politicians this summer. If cooler heads prevail, an agreement will be reached wherein the Big Sky will allow UND to remain a conference member with the proviso that the ND legislature will reverse their mandate. The timing of that will, of course, coincide with the election needs of the politicians.

Then again, if cooler heads don't prevail ... BOOM!

[Mike Vicks Dead PitBulls]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Just keep those knuckleheads out of the Summit/MVFC, I don't want their taint to foul up a good thing, and I'm sure ORU, Oakland, UNI, SIU, etc feel the same.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Just keep those knuckleheads out of the Summit/MVFC, I don't want their taint to foul up a good thing, and I'm sure ORU, Oakland, UNI, SIU, etc feel the same.

One has to keep in mind that the present dilemma was set up by the North Dakota legislature -- not UND. UND was ready to move on per the court settlement. [UND's reputation, however, will take it on the chin.]

That same legislature could come up with more screwy laws like, maybe forcing NDSU and UND to play each year.

[jackmd]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

SDSU won't be playing FB at UND as planned in 2013 if this issue is not resolved. I think that was part of the original agreement.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

You're right, MD...I saw a link to an article in the Grand Forks Herald making that statement.

I caught some of the UND AD's appearance on a talk show at 1:00 p.m. today on WDAY radio (Fargo). The guy didn't sugar-coat anything: they're in a mess. He said UND will not violate the new legislation so that means they're on a collision course with the conference and NCAA. I think I heard him to say they're trying to arrange a meeting with the NCAA (or the conference?) but I didn't hear a lot of optimism in his voice.

The prime sponsor of the legislation, Rep. Carlson from Fargo, said he'd vote the same if the vote had followed the Big Sky announcement handed out last week.