What's wrong with the men's team?

[filbert]

Ken Pomeroy, basketball uber-stats-geek, has a page that compares SDSU to other teams like the Jacks:

http://kenpom.com/stats.php?y=2006&t...%20St.&s=0

He has three key statistics:
Tempo/Pace: basically how many posessions per game the team has. More posessions, faster pace.

Offensive efficiency: essentially points per hundred posessions. Obviously higher means more efficient offense.
Defensive efficiency: points allowed per hundred posessions. Lower is obviously better.

Pomeroy gives a raw number, calculated vs. D-I competition, as well as an adjusted number which takes into account the particular teams played.

As of Dec. 3, SDSU's adjusted Tempo rating is #17. Yep, we have more posessions than all but sixteen D-I teams. The bad news is our adjusted Offensive efficiency is #322. So, only twelve D-I teams is less efficient at scoring points than this year's Jackrabbits. Here's where all of those turnovers and missed shots show up.

SDSU's defense is, surprisingly, not that bad, with an adjusted rank of #112.

So, this is a key to some of the things I've heard Nagy say. The Jacks need to limit the number of possessions--slow the game down, quit turning the ball over. He's said he wants to play games scoring in the 50's.

Then, we need to make shots. We also need to realize that SDSU's defense is not bad, not bad at all.

There's a way to get out of the hole our Jacks are currently in. All the team needs to do is (as is the case with all holes) stop digging themselves in further, take care of the basketball, slow the game down, and take good shots.

Simple, right?

[OK_Jackrabbit]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

I have felt like the defense (with the exception of the terrible performance in the Marquette game) was far ahead of the offense. The defense is good enough to win some games, if we can manage to shoot better than 38 percent and can keep turnovers to 15 or fewer. You can't fault the effort at all. But they're not keeping their heads in the big venues. I'm hoping those jitters will pass. Now that Holdren is gone, they have to settle in with the players they have and keep their wits about them. They're young, and maybe Cadwell's emergence will take some pressure off Beran.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

I don’t post often because everyone here seems to cover topics well. I did want to post something because I think it would contribute to the question asked by filbert. I do want to precede this note by saying I am probably one of the biggest State fans around, and I hope it does not get me kicked off the board as I enjoy it a lot. I am very glad about the move to DI. ;D

I went to State, as well as most of my family including my wife. I have been to or watched every game except the Marquette game. I have also been watching SDSU basketball for the last 15 years and I have not seen a team this bad. Any of our DII State teams would have wiped the floor with this team, even when Steve was playing. :'(

What our coach has to say (from another post):
-We had to scrap the offense with the loss of Steve, this is not a deep team, a lot of pressure on the freshman to perform, need to keep the game in the 50's and cant turn the ball over.

Translation
-Steve went down, and now our season is over. He was our entire game plan, so our offense is no good anymore. The rest of our players stink, but our young stinky players have to perform. Without Steve, we are just trying to not get blown out.

And we all wonder why the team plays with no confidence. ??? Their own coach thinks they are not good. Like others have said, Coach Nagy is not one to sugar coat things. But where does player confidence come from when the coach has nothing good to say about his players? :-/ Every one of these guys was a basketball player at one time, but I’m not sure they are anymore. What happened from the time they were recruited until now? If the team is not deep enough, there is only one person to blame, the person who recruited the team. If the players do not have confidence and are scared, ther is one person to blame, the person who runs practices and sees the players for hours each day.

Is that how we recruit, by getting one player and then a bunch of other guys who don’t know how to play? I know it is hard to recruit in the first couple of years, but these players can all play ball. As far as I can tell, the women’s team has continued to play, recruit, and coach the same way it has since AJ has been there. Why has the men’s play, recruiting, and coaching changed so much? Is it really hinging on one player? >

It sounds like Steve is done for the year. That stinks. But we do have a lot of other good players who can perform with the right reinforcement. What would we do if another player goes down? If Ben were to go down, would we have to cancel the rest of the games on our schedule? Maybe we could just play defense and try to not let the other team score 100?

As an example of the reinforcement they are getting right now, take a look at how most practices go. The offense makes a great play and scores. The coaching staff chews out the team or individual on defense who gave up the play. Next the defense makes a good play, so naturally the offensive team or player screwed up and they get their earful. This is a coaching strategy that may have worked in the past with veteran teams, but this is a young team that needs encouragement right now.

Sorry if this post is long and harsh, but I guess I am frustrated with the team and the direction it seems to be going.

[89rabbit]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

My only response is that Coach Scott Nagy is the best coach SDSU has ever had and I have total faith in him.

Go State! ;D

[SDSUFAN]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

Ligthen up on Nagy, he is not the demon who you preceive. I dont think he wants to scare the fear of God into anyone. If he can get the current kids to overcom their fear, its a feather in Nagy's cap. ;D

The season is not over yet and as he said on the post game show, the team needs to get a practice or two in before the next game. Whether that happens today, I dont know. The schedule being what it is does not allow 2 to 3 practices in between games, an opportunity to correct and to adjust. Thats what really needed for our young guys now.

I dont think basketball as ever been about one player and when teams build around one person, you get your hammer in the skull eventually.

Not to say Holdern is not a good player, he is, but there are others on the roster, and I think Coach Nagy will get it straighten out pretty soon.

I can say I am SDSU no 1 fan too so that proclaimation does not make you above criticism nor above skepticsm about your loyality. Its a little suspicious to me.

[filbert]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

I don’t post often because everyone here seems to cover topics well. I did want to post something because I think it would contribute to the question asked by filbert. I do want to precede this note by saying I am probably one of the biggest State fans around, and I hope it does not get me kicked off the board as I enjoy it a lot. I am very glad about the move to DI. ;D

I went to State, as well as most of my family including my wife. I have been to or watched every game except the Marquette game. I have also been watching SDSU basketball for the last 15 years and I have not seen a team this bad. Any of our DII State teams would have wiped the floor with this team, even when Steve was playing. :'(

What our coach has to say (from another post):
-We had to scrap the offense with the loss of Steve, this is not a deep team, a lot of pressure on the freshman to perform, need to keep the game in the 50's and cant turn the ball over.

Translation
-Steve went down, and now our season is over. He was our entire game plan, so our offense is no good anymore. The rest of our players stink, but our young stinky players have to perform. Without Steve, we are just trying to not get blown out.

And we all wonder why the team plays with no confidence. ??? Their own coach thinks they are not good. Like others have said, Coach Nagy is not one to sugar coat things. But where does player confidence come from when the coach has nothing good to say about his players? :-/ Every one of these guys was a basketball player at one time, but I’m not sure they are anymore. What happened from the time they were recruited until now? If the team is not deep enough, there is only one person to blame, the person who recruited the team. If the players do not have confidence and are scared, ther is one person to blame, the person who runs practices and sees the players for hours each day.

Is that how we recruit, by getting one player and then a bunch of other guys who don’t know how to play? I know it is hard to recruit in the first couple of years, but these players can all play ball. As far as I can tell, the women’s team has continued to play, recruit, and coach the same way it has since AJ has been there. Why has the men’s play, recruiting, and coaching changed so much? Is it really hinging on one player? >

It sounds like Steve is done for the year. That stinks. But we do have a lot of other good players who can perform with the right reinforcement. What would we do if another player goes down? If Ben were to go down, would we have to cancel the rest of the games on our schedule? Maybe we could just play defense and try to not let the other team score 100?

As an example of the reinforcement they are getting right now, take a look at how most practices go. The offense makes a great play and scores. The coaching staff chews out the team or individual on defense who gave up the play. Next the defense makes a good play, so naturally the offensive team or player screwed up and they get their earful. This is a coaching strategy that may have worked in the past with veteran teams, but this is a young team that needs encouragement right now.

Sorry if this post is long and harsh, but I guess I am frustrated with the team and the direction it seems to be going.

I think Nagy understands he needs to change the way he coaches given this situation--a situation that that I don't think he's ever been in before. So he's struggling with it just like his players are. I think that just like the rest of us, he's having a hard time adjusting. He's said a couple of things that I don't think he should be saying in front of a young team. I agree he needs to moderate his take-no-prisoners coaching style somewhat until he gets his team back on track.

This is probably the biggest challenge of his coaching career. But he's earned a year or two of patience from us fans, until his group of D-I underclassmen get their feet underneath them.

I still think this team (coaches AND players) will improve as the year goes on. It's painful to watch them all struggle right now, but they all need to take their current situation and turn it into strength. Holdren's absence means more playing time for Cadwell, Gilbert, and others.

Mainly, they just need to calm down and start making the shots that they can make.

It's hard right now but it'll come.

[jackrabbit1979]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

Ligthen up on Nagy, he is not the demon who you preceive. I dont think he wants to scare the fear of God into anyone. If he can get the current kids to overcom their fear, its a feather in Nagy's cap. ;D

The season is not over yet and as he said on the post game show, the team needs to get a practice or two in before the next game. Whether that happens today, I dont know. The schedule being what it is does not allow 2 to 3 practices in between games, an opportunity to correct and to adjust. Thats what really needed for our young guys now.

I dont think basketball as ever been about one player and when teams build around one person, you get your hammer in the skull eventually.

Not to say Holdern is not a good player, he is, but there are others on the roster, and I think Coach Nagy will get it straighten out pretty soon.

I can say I am SDSU no 1 fan too so that proclaimation does not make you above criticism nor above skepticsm about your loyality. Its a little suspicious to me.

How can one not be critical and skeptical of this team. If you are a true fan i don't know how you could not be. It sure as hell doesn't count against your loyalty and it definately is not reason to gain suspicion from the other fans about your feelings towards SDSU. This team is not that good, last year may have been worse. I understand we are young, transitioning, injuries,etc, etc, but SDSU fans have come to expect more from our basketball team. I can live with losses, but not even competing...

[OK_Jackrabbit]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

Sorry if this post is long and harsh, but I guess I am frustrated with the team and the direction it seems to be going.

I don't think there's anything wrong with making the points you made and asking the questions you are asking. I've heard people express many of those same concerns recently.

I've taught at the university level now for 8 years. While coaching and teaching aren't exactly analogous, I can say that I have sometimes felt as frustrated with my students as Nagy seems to be with his players. And every group is different. Typically, it takes some time to figure out how to motivate some of these kids. It's a balancing act between instilling confidence and critiquing errors. If they don't feel good about themselves, it's tough to challenge them. If they do feel too good about themselves, it's tough to get them to listen. If they're lost, it's hard to get them to listen enough to get them back on track.

Coach Nagy has a lot of experience working with young people in a coaching/teaching context. I'm sure he'll figure out the right strategy to get them going in the right direction. With the changes in personnel that occurred with Holdren's injury, he was forced to go back to the drawing board.

We sometimes forget how stable the roster was for several years when the team was having its most consistent D2 success. We had players who were in the system for six years with medical and redshirt years. Then those players all left, and it's been a rebuilding process since. I look at the last 2 recruiting classes as having tremendous potential. And next year's freshmen are going to be really, really good (after a redshirt year, no doubt.)

[SDSUFAN]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

How can one not be critical and skeptical of this team.  If you are a true fan i don't know how you could not be.  It sure as hell doesn't count against your loyalty and it definately is not reason to gain suspicion from the other fans about your feelings towards SDSU.  This team is not that good, last year may have been worse.  I understand we are young, transitioning, injuries,etc, etc, but SDSU fans have come to expect more from our basketball team.  I can live with losses, but not even competing...

Jackrabbit1979:

Whoa!!! this is just the kind of arguement that some would like to see happen on this board.  Did I say the Jacks men were the best? No I did not say that, but if you cant add anything positive, why bother. If you could come in and do a better job than Nagy, then be my guest. I dont think you can so why dwell on the negatives? :-X

The reason I was suspcious of Siouxfall Jack was his limited posting plus he registered on Sept 2005, which is not long ago. Any USD fan can sign up as a Jack fan and no one will know the difference.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

I think you can be critical of this team and coaching staff and still be a supporter of this program contrary to some of the extremists on this board who think Nagy and the team can do no wrong. With that being said I really thought it was going to be a long year regardless of whether we stayed healthy. This is not a deep team and worse yet we are starting a Junior, two Sophmores and 2 redshirt freshman. I think next year we will see some depth and experience at all positions for the first time in the new DI era. Next year we will add two 6'10 post players, a quick good passing point guard (Hornby) and a couple of true freshman Cordova and Bassett who I think will challenge for playing time and may not be redshirted. I know it's easy for us on this board to say but I'm getting tired of hearing we are playing scared and I'm sure the coaching staff is tired of saying it. I don't know how we will have more intimidating atmospheres than Rupp Arena and Assembly Hall. I realize Holdren was a big part of our plans, but every team has injuries. I think some people on this board had unrealistic expectations of this team. I won't go to say this is the worst team Nagy has ever had as this would be a very good DII team. DI Men's Basketball is the largest jump for any program moving into the DI ranks. Let's be patient, but also let people who want to be critical voice their opinion without jumping down there throats or discounting their opinions. I think we need to continue to hold this program too a high standard and that is what Nagy is trying to do by calling his players out!

[jackrabbit1979]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

Jackrabbit1979:

Whoa!!! this is just the kind of arguement that some would like to see happen on this board.  Did I say the Jacks men were the best? No I did not say that, but if you cant add anything positive, why bother. If you could come in and do a better job than Nagy, then be my guest. I dont think you can so why dwell on the negatives? :-X

The reason I was suspcious of Siouxfall Jack was his limited posting.

Well for one, besides Matt Cadwell, I struggle to find any positives with the team. I do not expect the men to win even half their games, but i did think they would be a lot more competitive than they have been. Maybe i am quick to judge, but this is a discussion board and if we can't be a critic in this forum that nobody really cares about than where can we. We are here to discuss SDSU athletics, positive and negative, and when there aren't many positives to disuss i will comment on the negatives. If this board is only for posting game logs, notes, articles about SDSU from the media, and defending SDSU athletics with our rose colored glasses on, it just isn't as interesting in my opinion.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

Well for one, besides Matt Cadwell, I struggle to find any positives with the team.  I do not expect the men to win even half their games, but i did think they would be a lot more competitive than they have been.  Maybe i am quick to judge, but this is a discussion board and if we can't be a critic in this forum that nobody really cares about than where can we.  We are here to discuss SDSU athletics, positive and negative, and when there aren't many positives to disuss i will comment on the negatives.  If this board is only for posting game logs, notes, articles about SDSU from the media, and defending SDSU athletics with our rose colored glasses on, it just isn't as interesting in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more!

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

SDSUFAN, like I said, "I don’t post often because everyone here seems to cover topics well. I did want to post something because I think it would contribute to the question asked by filbert." As for patience, up until now I have kept my mouth shut.

Even though I don't post regularly, I do read the board almost every day.

As for "next year we will have better players," we have had 3 years to recruit DI talent. How many players have left in the last 3 years who were supposed to be DI talent? Andy Moeller, Matt Jones, Joe Green, and Jake Wenig. Everyone of these guys was a legit player who could have helped the last couple of years, but I am sure I will hear a bunch of excuses about why they left. Bottom line-some of our best players the last 3 years are no longer with the team. Maybe they got tired of getting yelled at. Most mid-major programs count on keeping their kids for at least 4 if not 5 years.

On another note, has anyone else noticed that it seems we are trying to use media timeouts in place of substitutions? In the final stretch of games, players are on the floor for 6-10 minutes without a break. This in turn leads to key turnovers and missed defensive assignments. It seems like we ran out of gas against Kentucky, SEMO, and Fullerton.

[OK_Jackrabbit]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

I think we need to let people speak their minds and try not to drive them away. I have heard from a few people in town that they're not comfortable contributing to this board because they've seen people get run off or shut down by the long-time contributors. More than once, I have had people roll their eyes when I mention something I read about here. I try to remember that when somebody new comes along.

I would hope that we wouldn't start being suspicious of every new poster. If I don't agree with somebody, I confront what they say with my own take on things. That's fair. But if we're going to discount what people say based on the number of posts they have made or based on the date they registered, this becomes a pretty small conversation group.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: What's wrong with the men's team?

I think you can be critical of this team and coaching staff and still be a supporter of this program contrary to some of the extremists on this board who think Nagy and the team can do no wrong. With that being said I really thought it was going to be a long year regardless of whether we stayed healthy. This is not a deep team and worse yet we are starting a Junior, two Sophmores and 2 redshirt freshman. I think next year we will see some depth and experience at all positions for the first time in the new DI era. Next year we will add two 6'10 post players, a quick good passing point guard (Hornby) and a couple of true freshman Cordova and Bassett who I think will challenge for playing time and may not be redshirted. I know it's easy for us on this board to say but I'm getting tired of hearing we are playing scared and I'm sure the coaching staff is tired of saying it. I don't know how we will have more intimidating atmospheres than Rupp Arena and Assembly Hall. I realize Holdren was a big part of our plans, but every team has injuries. I think some people on this board had unrealistic expectations of this team. I won't go to say this is the worst team Nagy has ever had as this would be a very good DII team. DI Men's Basketball is the largest jump for any program moving into the DI ranks. Let's be patient, but also let people who want to be critical voice their opinion without jumping down there throats or discounting their opinions. I think we need to continue to hold this program too a high standard and that is what Nagy is trying to do by calling his players out!        

So I am extreme and jumping down people throats, thank you. I guess my opinions are not worth posting here because I must agree with JackGuy II.