Brand Name Games

[zooropa]

- I'm not intending to make this a debate about whether Nagy should be kept as a coach.

- I'm not intending to make this a debate about player effort.

Here's the question I have:

Should SDSU continue to schedule a significant number of non-conference games against 'name brand' programs? Should SDSU be playing Boston College, Minnesota and Purdue in the same non-conference season? (or even, to stretch a point, Wyoming & Nevada--schools which most likely will not be coming to Frost next year)

We, as fans, tend to look askance at FCS programs that schedule more than one payday game, and yet, is the MBB schedule that much different than, say, USD playing Central Florida AND Minnesota?

Understand, I'm not saying that SDSU should be playing nothing but the Upper Iowas and Southwest Minnesota States of the world.

What I'm saying is that SDSU plays a lot of games that don't come with -any- return game which means having to buy games from schools like Upper Iowa to fill out the schedule (would, say, a game against Tennessee State have worse attendance than a game against Upper Iowa?)

This continues to put SDSU behind the 8-ball. These are games that SDSU fans should not expect SDSU to win, and they're games that require SDSU to buy cheap and nasty opponents for the home non-conf schedule.

Even though they're not winnable games, when SDSU loses fans hold it against them. Frankly, if the team can't possibly be expected to win the game, nobody should be upset when they lose.

But every loss brings out the boo-birds and the cat-calls, and the demands for changes at the top.

And for the team, a loss to Minnesota can't be minimized by the knowledge that they really didn't have a chance.

Should Nagy stop taking the easy money and easy scheduling that comes with being Tubby Smith's stocking stuffer every year?

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Regardless of the -occasional- win, IMO, it costs the program in the long run.

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And in response to the argument that, "basketball is different---because there's only one class," I would say that there are two classes until tournament time. And playing too many games against the next class up affects the team.

The 'mid major' tag has currency because it more or less accurately describes the 'second class' of college basketball.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: Brand Name Games

Although South Dakota seems to have scheduled some away only beatings from teams like Texas Tech and Marquette, the second half of the year against the frighteningly poor Great West should assure them of a winning season.

Will it be better for Jake Thomas's psyche to not spend his first year at a program that gains fewer than ten victories? Maybe. Are the present seniors on the Jacks negatively affected by their freshman year? Maybe.

USD seems to have gotten two pretty good juco transfers that are helping them out quite a bit. That too should help.

Winning games, even against marginal D1 opponents may have benefit during the transition period. How long will the horrible year that North Dakota is having reverberate with the program?

[JACKGUYII]

Re: Brand Name Games

The only way we should continue to play some of these major conference teams is if we start to blend in some recruitment of experienced junior college players. I know we have had mixed results with this practice, but that should not stop us from going in that direction again. I watched a team play the gophers last night that was less athletic than at any other point we have played them. I believe the core of our recruitment should be to get the best high school players we can , but we will not be competitive outside the conference and in some degree in the conference if we don't take some chances on Juco players. We could have used a Mohammed Berte on the floor last night.

[Jacks99]

Re: Brand Name Games

I would agree that it would benefit the program more to schedule more home/home winnable games and maybe a few 2/1 games against upper mid-majors. Nagy did comment that we will be getting the "1" in the 2/1 coming home in the next two years, but I we need more home games.

Until we are consistently at the level that Oakland and ORU are, I would rather have a better record and the benefits of a weak schedule going into conference.

What are all the benefits of the Caribbean tournaments? Easy scheduling against new teams would be one, but I would think 2/1's would be better. How does the money shake out for these?

[zooropa]

Re: Brand Name Games

And I'd say that OU is not doing themselves any favors with this schedule.

If SDSU takes one or two payday games and all the rest as 2-1 or 1-1, and declines the MTE invites, they might find themselves going into the conference season with more momentum.

I'm sure there are quite a few OVC, Sun-Belt (although SDSU has certainly struggled with Denver), and other misc. teams that would do 1-1s with SDSU because they're in basically the same situation as SDSU.

[joeboo22]

Re: Brand Name Games

OK....

first of all as stated by Nagy in the argus article next year when we start getting return games the schedule will shake up.... The Wyoming, and Nevada games I think were last minute additions, both I believe are 1-1's but I'm betting that they get bought out.... Minnesota I think you have to play, Tubby has great respect for SDSU and it is a regional match up....

The thing that some people need to understand that you have to have a partner to dance with..... unlike a North Carolina who when a team backs out or something happens they can go and get anybody to come to the Dean Dome and play.... SDSU doesn't have that luxery, when a team backs out you either have to go out and get a SMSU or pick up a road game....

The Holiday tournaments in which this year we played some real competition are good and bad things, you get 3 games in a resort but you play 3 games in 4 days and they can physically and mentally wear a team out....

[Jacks99]

Re: Brand Name Games

OK....

Minnesota I think you have to play, Tubby has great respect for SDSU and it is a regional match up....

I can agree with that, but it doesn't have to be every year unless they start making a return trip once in a few years.

[zooropa]

Re: Brand Name Games

I can agree with that, but it doesn't have to be every year unless they start making a return trip once in a few years.

Would an SDSU/U of M game at the Arena, or Arena substitute be enough to draw Minnesota out of Williams Arena to play SDSU?

[joeboo22]

Re: Brand Name Games

I can agree with that, but it doesn't have to be every year unless they start making a return trip once in a few years.

I'm guessing we are getting some kind of pay day for that game, and I think in the coming years we won't be playing them every year but so far they have scheduled us..... My understanding is you don't turn away a regional pay day game, especially when your home schedule is what it is..... now in the coming years when we start seeing return trips from quality teams I think the need to play a Minnesota every year diminishes but as of now I think you have to take that game.....

[zooropa]

Re: Brand Name Games

'especially when your home schedule is what it is'

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Minnesota is a perpetual road game. You never get a return game, so every year you play Minnesota you have to find some team that's willing to JUST come to Brookings, and that's going to be a pretty crappy team.

[joeboo22]

Re: Brand Name Games

'especially when your home schedule is what it is'

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Minnesota is a perpetual road game. You never get a return game, so every year you play Minnesota you have to find some team that's willing to JUST come to Brookings, and that's going to be a pretty crappy team.

no.....

you play approximately 30 games.... 18 which are conference, 12 which are non conference....

you like to get as many quality home games as possible while still playing quality teams to prepare yourself......

the thing is when it is getting close to finalizing your schedule you have a choice, do you want to bring in a lower level opponent last second, or go to a payday game against a regional opponent in Minnesota.....

What I'd like to see though is if we are going to go to Nevada and Wyoming why not get another game on the way there? Why not play a Cal-State Bakersfield when we play Nevada and why not play Colorado State or Northern Colorado when we go to Wyoming?

However again I don't think many people understand the art of scheduling for basketball..... you have to schedule roughly 12 games, while trying to get the highest quality of teams to come to your place, making it work with your schedule as well as the facilities schedule and at the same time try to make some money while doing it....

[zooropa]

Re: Brand Name Games

no.....

Try to follow the bouncing ball:

You want one home game for every road game, at least:

Now if you've got a road game at Minnesota every year, then you need a home game every year to balance that out.

It's not as though you can go

'09 Minnesota, @ Iowa
'10 @ Iowa, Minnesota
'11 Minnesota @ Iowa

etc.

You get:

'09 @ Minnesota, Upper Iowa
'10 @ Minnesota, Upper Iowa
'11 @ Minnesota, Upper Iowa

See the problem?

If you're always taking guarantee money for one of your games, you need to spend some of that money to bring in another team.

And the only teams that SDSU has bought with NO promise of a return game are teams like Mayville State, Upper Iowa, Southwest State, etc. And none of those teams do well at the gate.

The problem is that if you're going to take the money, you need to spend the money on a program that is probably as far below you as you are below the university you're taking the check from.

And as to why SDSU doesn't play Wyoming & Colorado State on the same trip, think about the logistics: What are the odds that Wyoming will have an open slot on Friday and Colorado State will have an open slot on Saturday, or vice versa? These schools compose their non-conf schedules independent of each other, and not in collaboration to assist the scheduling challenges of unrelated third parties (e.g. SDSU)

Compare going to Minnesota every year with, say:

@ Central Michigan, Austin Peay
@ Austin Peay, Central Michigan
@ Tennessee State, Eastern Illinois
@ Eastern Illinois, Tennessee State

Would those games draw as well to Frost? Maybe. Would they be better games to watch? Definitely. Would they provide far more winnable road contests than Minnesota? Certainly.

[SturgisJeff]

Re: Brand Name Games

Look at the Univ of Minn non conference schedule the last two years. This year four away games and they were tournaments or the ACC Big Ten Challenge. Last year two away games. Tubby pretty much schedules teams that have to come to him to get the game, Concordia St Paul, Highpoint, us , NDSU, Eastern Wash, Bowling Green, Tenn Tech, SFA, Morgan St, you get the picture. How many of these are the gophers going to return to the other teams court. He schedules to get the team ready for the Big Ten. yea they win a lot and get the confidence up, but then get killed in the conference. 2008-09 12-0 in non conference play 9-9 in conference play not counting the tournament. I wouldn't mind seeing more mid majors at home that will challenge the team but not demoralize them if they win. Build the confidence and skills, not get blown out and not have a chance to develope and get the confidence shot to hell.

[joeboo22]

Re: Brand Name Games

I know that there are logistics to getting a 2 game road trip.... The point I am getting at is that until we start getting return trips for the open contracts we have had for the past 4-5 years it will be tough to not have to play a Minnesota.... Ultimately I do not have a problem playing Minnesota every year.... If we hadn't played Purdue and Boston College in that tournament I don't think it would be a problem....

The way I would like to see the non-conference schedule would be something like this

1- premier game (Minnesota does count as this)
6-8- lower mid-majors (Denver's, Central Michigan's)
the others mixed between lower big schools and higher mid-majors (Nevada's, Wyoming's and so on)

[rcjacks]

Re: Brand Name Games

I can agree with that, but it doesn't have to be every year unless they start making a return trip once in a few years.

The Gophers would never come to Frost Arena or even the SF Arena for a game. They sell their tickets for $40-50 a ticket, and can seat 12-15,000 fans. That is a lot of lost revenue plus you don't see BCS schools coming to mid-major programs.