Interesting NDSU stats....

[tjbison]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

We would've had that (maybe) when it came to the NDSU MBB season, except some board members would derail any positive talk about the Bison MBB team into a 'fire Nagy!!!!!!!!!' argument.

FWIW, the next couple years will show if NDSU is going to have a lengthy hangover from this season. It -could- happen.


OTOH, the Summit is weak enough that you've got to be pretty genuinely bad to miss the tournament.....

i don't disagree, and also know that its a huge ??????????? for NDSU next year, but also do not understand how the Team can be thrown under the bus already by SOME of your fans because they are young, they have been able to play and practice with 4 of the best players to ever go thru NDSU, it all counts for experience, as during practice i will argue that our underclassmen will not meet a tougher player than Winks and Woody to practice their D on???

[zooropa]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

do not understand how the Team can be thrown under the bus already by SOME of your fans

Simple: It's because SDSU has lost, what? 6 straight games to NDSU, and the fans are seeing an opportunity for some payback, and a few of them are sort of channeling their inner 'lakes'.

It's a fair point about practicing against the Fab Four, but, conversely, none of the backups were good enough to earn significant minutes against the Fab Four--which I think would be more accurately described as the Fab Two and Pretty Good Two (Nelson & Moorman were not what Winks & Woody were). I don't know that Nelson & Moorman merit 32 & 21 minutes per game in a more well rounded team.... (but that's just my opinion)

IMO, if Saul's philosophy is to play power-conference style (short rotation, heavy minutes), NDSU could be in for a rough couple years (at least until he learns different or --worst case-- gets fired)

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[FargoBison]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

Nelson played 30 minutes a game because he is the best defender on the team and one of the best in the league. Nelson having to guard the other team's best guard made life much easier on Woodside. You want to know why we beat Oakland in Sioux Falls, Mike Nelson took Kangas out of the game in the 2nd half.

You would also be hard pressed find a guy that moves better without the ball, Nelson would see solid minutes on a lot of mid-major teams. Moorman on the other hand is lucky that good big men are hard to find, he is a solid defender but about all he could do offensively is set screens for Woodside.

I do think people look to far into the starters and guys not taking their minutes. I highly doubt the freshman Eric Carlson is going to take minutes from Tveidt or Winkelman, Coleman a Sophmore isn't going to take minutes from Nelson or Winkelman, than you have Josh Vaughan who was a sg playing at pg because the team had nobody else that could spell Woodside. If you want to talk about players that had their chance and failed, I'll give you Flowers and Sussenguth, all they had to do was do something offensively and minutes would have been much easier to come by. Their play is probably why Saul is thinking about playing Jordan Aaberg as a true freshmen when the plan all along was to redshirt him.

[zooropa]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

Nelson having to guard the other team's best guard made life much easier on Woodside. You want to know why we beat Oakland in Sioux Falls, Mike Nelson took Kangas out of the game in the 2nd half.

Thanks for the 'insider' info. SDSU, IMO, needs someone like that on the WBB side to give Jill Young a better opportunity to produce without sacrificing on D.

[FargoBison]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

Thanks for the 'insider' info. SDSU, IMO, needs someone like that on the WBB side to give Jill Young a better opportunity to produce without sacrificing on D.

Yeah, I hope somebody can step up and fill his role at NDSU as well, whoever the new pg is definitely going to be counted on to making things go offensively.

[tjbison]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

Simple: It's because SDSU has lost, what? 6 straight games to NDSU, and the fans are seeing an opportunity for some payback, and a few of them are sort of channeling their inner 'lakes'.

It's a fair point about practicing against the Fab Four, but, conversely, none of the backups were good enough to earn significant minutes against the Fab Four--which I think would be more accurately described as the Fab Two and Pretty Good Two (Nelson & Moorman were not what Winks & Woody were). I don't know that Nelson & Moorman merit 32 & 21 minutes per game in a more well rounded team.... (but that's just my opinion)

IMO, if Saul's philosophy is to play power-conference style (short rotation, heavy minutes), NDSU could be in for a rough couple years (at least until he learns different or --worst case-- gets fired)

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Zoo im not going to argue that we won't have some serious shoes to fill but also to expect underclassmen to take the starting spots away from our boys last year is just unreasonable! it would have taken a High major type player to do it!!! and Nelson was a far better player than you give him credit for, not expected but did you watch the NDSU vs. WI-Milwaukee game hes played stellar D which is what he did all his career and he helped win alot of games

[JACKGUYII]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

SDSU will never be what NDSU was this past season. NEVER. why do you guys think that a bunch of first year starters can't win??

and aout sdsu "restoring order against ndsu"....NDSU leads the all-time series 105 - 93. so what dominance?

I don't think most Bison Fans and for that matter some Jacks Fans understand the caliber of the recruiting class of Fiegan,White,Carlson and Wolters. That's okay they will soon enough!

[zooropa]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

to expect underclassmen to take the starting spots away from our boys last year

Who said starting spots? I meant minutes---NDSU's seniors played mondo minutes.

And I don't think the kind of talent that NDSU & SDSU are likely to land will be competitive, typically, at about 35 minutes a game.

[FargoBison]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

NDSU had one starter in the top 10 in the Summit League in minutes played. Some of these guys had minutes, but not really the kind of minutes you need to develop and build confidence.

As for SDSU's recruiting class I think NDSU fans have admitted it is good, but most feel pretty confident in the class Saul has assembled. If all goes to plan, both schools should be really good in the future.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

Nelson played 30 minutes a game because he is the best defender on the team and one of the best in the league. Nelson having to guard the other team's best guard made life much easier on Woodside. You want to know why we beat Oakland in Sioux Falls, Mike Nelson took Kangas out of the game in the 2nd half.

You would also be hard pressed find a guy that moves better without the ball, Nelson would see solid minutes on a lot of mid-major teams. Moorman on the other hand is lucky that good big men are hard to find, he is a solid defender but about all he could do offensively is set screens for Woodside.

I do think people look to far into the starters and guys not taking their minutes. I highly doubt the freshman Eric Carlson is going to take minutes from Tveidt or Winkelman, Coleman a Sophmore isn't going to take minutes from Nelson or Winkelman, than you have Josh Vaughan who was a sg playing at pg because the team had nobody else that could spell Woodside. If you want to talk about players that had their chance and failed, I'll give you Flowers and Sussenguth, all they had to do was do something offensively and minutes would have been much easier to come by. Their play is probably why Saul is thinking about playing Jordan Aaberg as a true freshmen when the plan all along was to redshirt him.

Rep points to you for this post. This is part of the reason I started this thread, to learn more about next years Bison.

I would like to have the same rational and respectful discussion over on Bisonville but for some reason I registered, was accepted and all but still can't post.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

NDSU had one starter in the top 10 in the Summit League in minutes played.

I have no reason to doubt you, but there must have been some Summit players out there who logged some major minutes....

Woodside - 34.5 minutes per game
Winkleman - 33.0 mpg
Nelson - 31.4 mpg

Those are some major minutes to replace from some major players.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

All Games:

                               Gm Min  Avg
1.  Johnathon Jones   OU    Jr 36 1361 37.8
2.  Nick Stallings    CC    Sr 31 1133 36.5
3.  David DuBois      WIU   Sr 27  976 36.1
4.  Erik Kangas	      OU    Sr 35 1260 36.0
5.  Gary Patterson    IUPUI Sr 25  879 35.2
6.  Robert Jarvis     ORU   Sr 31 1086 35.0
7.  Davis Baker       SUU   Jr 31 1085 35.0
8.  Tyler Quinney     SUU   Sr 30 1042 34.7
9.  Chase Adams       CC    Jr 31 1071 34.5
10. Ben Woodside      NDSU  Sr 33 1137 34.5

League Games:

                               Gm Min Avg
1.  Johnathon Jones   OU    Jr 18 679 37.7
2.  David DuBois      WIU   Sr 16 586 36.6
3.  Erik Kangas	      OU    Sr 18 652 36.2
    Nick Stallings    CC    Sr 18 652 36.2
5.  Davis Baker       SUU   Jr 18 639 35.5
6.  Ben Woodside      NDSU  Sr 18 631 35.1
7.  Garrett Callahan  SDSU  Jr 18 629 34.9
8.  Gary Patterson    IUPUI Sr 18 625 34.7
9.  Robert Jarvis     ORU   Sr 18 622 34.6
10. Chase Adams       CC    Jr 18 620 34.4

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

Thanks for the list.

I noticed there were all JR's and SR's on there, further adding hope that a young team like SDSU, who doesn't really lose anyone, is in good shape. We are one of three teams who doesn't lose a guy who played more than 34 mpg for the year.

On top of that, one of the three teams is IPFW, whose top minutes guy Carson was their best player (31.8mpg - 14.8ppg 5.5rpg) and a Senior. The other school not on the list, UMKC, is a complete mess right now.

More reason for optimism!

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

My point is, 3 of the 4 NDSU players that won't return were on the floor a loooong time (the 4th still played over half the game). Woody and Winkleman basically sat when game was in hand, Nelson wasn't much better. There is alot of alot that is going to need to be replaced next year in Fargo.

I have no doubt that NDSU will put a quality product on the Summit League floor, I'm just not sure it's going to be in the next couple of years.

[HandoEX]

Re: Interesting NDSU stats....

To play behind those seniors obviously meant that the stat lines for the underclassmen had to look weak...but stats don't equal talent or wins.

If stats meant so much, NDSU should have gone undefeated in 2008-2009 and deep into the tourney since our two big guns outscored almost every player on the teams they faced (Woody and Winks were 2 the leading scorers in the Mpls NCAA site).

I'll say this: Ben Woodside, Brett Winkleman, and Mike Nelson averaged 34.5, 33, and 31.4 minutes per game. I do not see those guys losing many, if any, minutes to anyone on SDSU's or NDSU's current '09-'10 roster. That doesn't mean that the current rosters will feild poor teams, but those guys were simply better players and commanded a ton of minutes.