Missouri River flooding

[RowdyRabbit]

Re: Missouri River flooding

A video shot yesterday (6-5-11)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xGR1...el_video_title

[goon]

Re: Missouri River flooding

I dont really understand much about Dams execpt they hold back water and usually you can take a damn tour. When dams are built up stream, is there any kind of diversion channel that can go around the city to lessen chances of flooding? if there are is in adequate, or if not, how do you divert the water around when the dam was built. Just me thinking here, that it seems there should be other options to happen first before openning gates that could cause flooding. If it had diversion channels around the cities that it would ease that extra flood water just by bypassing it.

[SturgisJeff]

Re: Missouri River flooding

I dont really understand much about Dams execpt they hold back water and usually you can take a damn tour. When dams are built up stream, is there any kind of diversion channel that can go around the city to lessen chances of flooding? if there are is in adequate, or if not, how do you divert the water around when the dam was built. Just me thinking here, that it seems there should be other options to happen first before openning gates that could cause flooding. If it had diversion channels around the cities that it would ease that extra flood water just by bypassing it.

you would make a bad government employee with an attitude like this. thinking of logical, practical, and working solutions to a problem are not in the government way of doing business. you would never make it past GS-4 worker bee.

[rabidrabbit]

Re: Missouri River flooding

As someone who's made a career out of floodplain issues, this is more an issue of keeping people from developing at risk, rather than channelizing a problem away. The design of these 6 mainstem Mo R. dams completed off a drought cycle of data, is still not going to go into an emergency spillway. Yes, the discharge is a record, post reservoirs, but is going to be significantly less than it would have been without the dams.

These reservoirs are working to store flood waters, and protect the downstream cities, Sioux City, Omaha, KC, Springfield, and St Louis. Further, the Big Sioux and James have peaked through, and so now the Corps can start running water down again, and they couldn't earlier. It's a delicate timing issue to keep the incredible amount of water in the upper MO. basin from causing record stages downstream, but there is a very strong likelihood that the Corps can succeed. Will there be damages along the way? Sure. Would the damages have been worse without the reservoirs? Extremely likely.

[MikeHenriksen]

Re: Missouri River flooding

In 1952 the water ran from bluff to bluff, or about 14 miles wide, south of Sioux City to north of Omaha. Picture that the next time you head down I-29.

[Nidaros]

Re: Missouri River flooding

In 1952 the water ran from bluff to bluff, or about 14 miles wide, south of Sioux City to north of Omaha. Picture that the next time you head down I-29.

Mike you remember 1952? I did not think you were that old. Great job on the Stig interview BTW. Seems like the flood of 1952 was what got the wheels turning in congress and as a result Garrison, Fort Peck, Oahe, Fort Randall and Gavins Point were all built. The original intent was flood control and generation of electricity. This has been an unusual year with snow and rain being more than expected, and The Corp of Engineers is catching flack for allowing people including Governor Rounds for building manisions in flood plans and not anticipating these situaitions with the large amount of snow fall from last winter. This winter did remind me of the winter of 1952.

Goon, these dams have a very important purpose, besides giving tours. Diversions seem to get all these developers off the hook for developing areas located within flood plans. Diversions also cost a great deal of money. Fargo Moorhead has been trying to get one for years and with the changes in Congressional representation, it might be many more years before it happens.

[Jacks-02]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Found a few pictures just by googling 1952 flood. There are alot more but here's a few.

Pierre


Ft. Pierre


Ft. Pierre


Sioux City

[mango4]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Found a few pictures just by googling 1952 flood. There are alot more but here's a few.

Ft. Pierre

The Hop scotch was around in 1952?? Who knew.

[goon]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Mike you remember 1952? I did not think you were that old. Great job on the Stig interview BTW. Seems like the flood of 1952 was what got the wheels turning in congress and as a result Garrison, Fort Peck, Oahe, Fort Randall and Gavins Point were all built. The original intent was flood control and generation of electricity. This has been an unusual year with snow and rain being more than expected, and The Corp of Engineers is catching flack for allowing people including Governor Rounds for building manisions in flood plans and not anticipating these situaitions with the large amount of snow fall from last winter. This winter did remind me of the winter of 1952.

Goon, these dams have a very important purpose, besides giving tours. Diversions seem to get all these developers off the hook for developing areas located within flood plans. Diversions also cost a great deal of money. Fargo Moorhead has been trying to get one for years and with the changes in Congressional representation, it might be many more years before it happens.

Me just wondering again, but doesnt it cost a lot to prep for flooding, moving people out using black hawk helicopters, the cost of damage to property and time missed at work. Is that not also expensive? Really just curiosity on my part. If the time and money went into diverting water around the cities or developed areas better, that could help keep these unfortunate costs from rising with the water.

[Nidaros]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Me just wondering again, but doesnt it cost a lot to prep for flooding, moving people out using black hawk helicopters, the cost of damage to property and time missed at work. Is that not also expensive? Really just curiosity on my part. If the time and money went into diverting water around the cities or developed areas better, that could help keep these unfortunate costs from rising with the water.

Yes there is expense. but you need to ask two questions? Did you build in a flood plan? Do you have flood insurance? Living in a flood plan what else can you expect? a flood now and then perhaps!!!

[Jacks-02]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Me just wondering again, but doesnt it cost a lot to prep for flooding, moving people out using black hawk helicopters, the cost of damage to property and time missed at work. Is that not also expensive? Really just curiosity on my part. If the time and money went into diverting water around the cities or developed areas better, that could help keep these unfortunate costs from rising with the water.

Pierre and Ft. Pierre are generally both located on the bluffs of the Missouri. You'd need to move millions of yards of dirt to build a diversion channel or put in massive, massive tunnels to do any kind of diversion of the flood waters of the Missouri. You are likely talking $100's of millions of dollars to create a project of that magnitude. The simple thing to do to avoid this is just don't let people build houses in the flood plain of a large, unpredictable river like the Mighty Mo.

[mango4]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Pierre and Ft. Pierre are generally both located on the bluffs of the Missouri. You'd need to move millions of yards of dirt to build a diversion channel or put in massive, massive tunnels to do any kind of diversion of the flood waters of the Missouri. You are likely talking $100's of millions of dollars to create a project of that magnitude. The simple thing to do to avoid this is just don't let people build houses in the flood plain of a large, unpredictable river like the Mighty Mo.

A lot of those homes aren't in the flood plain. And the Army Corps of Engineers is suppose to make the Missouri a lot more predictable then it is right now.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Missouri River flooding

A lot of those homes aren't in the flood plain. And the Army Corps of Engineers is suppose to make the Missouri a lot more predictable then it is right now.

Pretty tough to predict a 500 year rain event across eastern MT. I'm sure the Corps will hire anyone (and pay them A LOT) who can predict that event. They had the reserviors set-up to take the snow runoff, then the huge rain event threw a wrinkle into that plan. The high releases right now are preparing for the snowmelt so the emergency spillways don't have to be used.

The Corps has to balance a lot of interests when managing the system. If they would have had the reserviors at a level capable of holding the rain event and the snow melt and then the rain event didn't happen, the lake levels would have been low and fishing and boating would have suffered. Would have had to move docks like a few years ago, etc. Everyone up and down the river (the peoples whose homes are now flooding) would not have been happy.

Bottom line is you can't control the river 100% of the time. You build close to the river you take a chance. The Army Corps is not to blame, if the river wasn't damed we would have these flooding problems far more often.

[Nidaros]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Pretty tough to predict a 500 year rain event across eastern MT. I'm sure the Corps will hire anyone (and pay them A LOT) who can predict that event. They had the reserviors set-up to take the snow runoff, then the huge rain event threw a wrinkle into that plan. The high releases right now are preparing for the snowmelt so the emergency spillways don't have to be used.

The Corps has to balance a lot of interests when managing the system. If they would have had the reserviors at a level capable of holding the rain event and the snow melt and then the rain event didn't happen, the lake levels would have been low and fishing and boating would have suffered. Would have had to move docks like a few years ago, etc. Everyone up and down the river (the peoples whose homes are now flooding) would not have been happy.

Bottom line is you can't control the river 100% of the time. You build close to the river you take a chance. The Army Corps is not to blame, if the river wasn't damed we would have these flooding problems far more often.

I could not agree more. I tried to give rep points, but got the spead around box.
The Corp is in a tough position trying to please everyone. I think the Missouri River has a purpose and controlling the floods is the purpose of the dams, plus electricity is generated. The creation of recreation opporunities possibly needs to be better controlled, particularily riverside homes etc. Thanks for the photos Jack02 and Mango4. We did not have television back then so there were no KELO LAND reporters giving blow by blow reports. Its great to have a few dry days.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Missouri River flooding

Pretty tough to predict a 500 year rain event across eastern MT. I'm sure the Corps will hire anyone (and pay them A LOT) who can predict that event. They had the reserviors set-up to take the snow runoff, then the huge rain event threw a wrinkle into that plan. The high releases right now are preparing for the snowmelt so the emergency spillways don't have to be used.

The Corps has to balance a lot of interests when managing the system. If they would have had the reserviors at a level capable of holding the rain event and the snow melt and then the rain event didn't happen, the lake levels would have been low and fishing and boating would have suffered. Would have had to move docks like a few years ago, etc. Everyone up and down the river (the peoples whose homes are now flooding) would not have been happy.

Bottom line is you can't control the river 100% of the time. You build close to the river you take a chance. The Army Corps is not to blame, if the river wasn't damed we would have these flooding problems far more often.

I think this is a pretty solid post. This is a terrible event and a tragedy for sure. I'm not saying the Army Corps couldn't have done better but water has to head somewhere and the whole river system from Montana to Louisiana has been overrun. Then add the events in Montana and things just compunded from there. There just aren't good answers that please everyone and there is no way to avoid suffering somewhere in the river chain when you have a 500 year event.

Obviously, the outpooring of support for the residents of Pierre and along the river in South Dakota has been tremendous. My prayers go out to all those in effected zone. Let's hope the temporary levees provide some relief.

SUPERBUNNY