DWU Now 5-2

[filbert]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

By the way, the current W-L of Division I vs. non-D-I schools this year is 147-7, if my calculations are correct.

The men who bit the dogs are:
Warner Southern, who beat Bethune Cookman 65-59;
Paul Quinn 84, Southern 81;
Texas College 86, Grambling 82;
Cal St. San Bernardino 71, Weber State 59;
Central Missouri 75, Central Michigan 70;
Alaska-Fairbanks 62, Oregon State 60;
Southeastern (FL) 67, Savannah State 65.

You can do it yourself . . . raw data at:
http://kenpom.com/cbbga08.txt

[West-River_Jack]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

By the way, the current W-L of Division I vs. non-D-I schools this year is 147-7, if my calculations are correct.

The men who bit the dogs are:
Warner Southern, who beat Bethune Cookman 65-59;
Paul Quinn 84, Southern 81;
Texas College 86, Grambling 82;
Cal St. San Bernardino 71, Weber State 59;
Central Missouri 75, Central Michigan 70;
Alaska-Fairbanks 62, Oregon State 60;
Southeastern (FL) 67, Savannah State 65.

You can do it yourself . . . raw data at:
http://kenpom.com/cbbga08.txt

I watched part of the Texas College @ Centenary game on Summit League TV. The Texas College team is for real!

[reveroo]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Reveroo:

Did not USF lose some of its better players to graduation? I was thinking that this score might have been due to the rebuilding at USF, but maybe not if there is a Corsica flash that we never saw at Frost.

Yes, USF did lose some of their better players to graduation. But I am still surprised by DWU's start this year. I expected them to struggle early while they got to now some of the new players that were brought in . . . (Fitzgerald, Waldner, and Brady Wiebe from Madison). I think Colby maybe came in thinking he could score 20-25 pts. a night easily, but is finding that he has other teammates (Broughton) that can get the job done too. As Colby continues to believe in his teammates and learns his role, the Tigers will keep improving. This was DWU's first win in Sioux Fall in four or five years, a good win for this program.

[UWMandSDSU]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Not to be picky, but it its Chase "Walder", not Waldner.

[SDHoops]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I think the refutation to SDHoops' argument is that whenever an NAIA school even comes close to beating a D-I school, it's news. Man bites dog.

The dozens of D-I school blowouts of NAIA schools aren't news. That's the expected result. Dog bites man.

I'm not sure what impulse causes otherwise rational people to somehow conclude from the occasional close game or win that the average NAIA athlete (or D-II athletes) has equal athletic ability to the average D-I athlete, or even to seriously entertain the argument.

The results, in aggregate, argue strongly against that conclusion.

Which doesn't mean that an NAIA team with superior motiviation won't occasionally knock off a D-I team. When that happens, we all notice, because it's unusual.

Then how on earth did Eric Heien come to SDSU and make an impact? By impact I mean playing meaningful minutes, not just walk-on minutes. NAIA to D1. I know there was a guy from a NAIA school who was a NBA prospect a few years ago....I know for a fact that one of BHSU women's players was recruited by SDSU, maybe not offered a scholly, but recruited. So I'm saying, is there THAT big of a drop off?

[propar80]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Then how on earth did Eric Heien come to SDSU and make an impact? By impact I mean playing meaningful minutes, not just walk-on minutes. NAIA to D1. I know there was a guy from a NAIA school who was a NBA prospect a few years ago....I know for a fact that one of BHSU women's players was recruited by SDSU, maybe not offered a scholly, but recruited. So I'm saying, is there THAT big of a drop off?

I've got to know. Do you have a cousin, brother, son, friend that plays for DWU for you not to be able to let this notion of NAIA some how even being in the same world as D-1 basketball??

Your recent posts on this thread haven't even convinced me that NAIA is in the same universe as D-II, much less D-1.

You obviously know a lot about SD high school basketball, but you need to dig a little deeper into D-1 basketball and realize it's not close to the level of NAIA just because a SD high school player here or there was recruited or played for SDSU in SDSU's first 4 years of being in D-1 TRANSITION and now plays NAIA ball.

Lastly, do you honestly believe SDSU would have 5 wins last year with all the success Nagy had in D-2, if the level of talent between D-1 and NAIA is even relatively close??

Sorry man, not buying what you're selling and I think a lot of people on this board are not seeing what you're seeing. How could they, it makes NO sense??

Go Jacks!!

[2002jack]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Then how on earth did Eric Heien come to SDSU and make an impact? By impact I mean playing meaningful minutes, not just walk-on minutes. NAIA to D1. I know there was a guy from a NAIA school who was a NBA prospect a few years ago....I know for a fact that one of BHSU women's players was recruited by SDSU, maybe not offered a scholly, but recruited. So I'm saying, is there THAT big of a drop off?

I think you have to note, that Filbert said "average" player. There are a few exceptions, but as a whole, NAIA athletes will not compete with DI athletes.

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

There are many differences between NAIA schools and NCAA schools. One big one is that NAIA schools don't have any recruiting rules and can call and visit recruits as much as they want. They can also make contact with recruits at any time, at any place. Also, student-athletes at NAIA schools are not held to the academic standards NCAA athletes are.

Oh come now. Are you saying that small often times private NAIA institutions do not have high academics standards for their student athletes? The NAIA schools do not generally coddle their student athletes to the degree that NCAA Div I schools do either. We all know about those sports communication classes and other simplistic classes that are available for the Div I athletes and how standards are lowered at most NCAA institutions to get marginal student athletes accepted. So let's not get too uppity here.
I believe the average NAIA athlete is not up to Div I level. I do believe that schools like NWC and SFC and even DWU could be competitive with most Div II programs. Maybe not quite as good but I believe SFC could beat USD in football this year, even in the dome.

[collegewatcher]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Eric Heien got playing time because he showed up. You can not call the team that he saw minutes for a Division I team in anything but name! If he shows up in 1999 or 2001 or anyother year we were darn good at DII, he would not have seen near the minutes he saw. How much time would our starting guards from 3 years ago, Giever and Hokenson(?), see now? How much did they see before they were forced into a starting role because of circumstances? Not much, in my opinion. Great guys and I appreciate their effort, but they are not players that are going to get us where we need or want to be.

There are reasons that there are different collegiate levels. Are you saying that if we don't get a certain player, we should just go ahead and take his backup instead since there is no real step down? Of course there are some players at lower levels that could play at a higher level, but not many of them.

The bottom line is that as we improve, we will beat the crap out of NAIA teams, as we should.

[BTownJack]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Oh come now. Are you saying that small often times private NAIA institutions do not have high academics standards for their student athletes? The NAIA schools do not generally coddle their student athletes to the degree that NCAA Div I schools do either. We all know about those sports communication classes and other simplistic classes that are available for the Div I athletes and how standards are lowered at most NCAA institutions to get marginal student athletes accepted. So let's not get too uppity here.
I believe the average NAIA athlete is not up to Div I level. I do believe that schools like NWC and SFC and even DWU could be competitive with most Div II programs. Maybe not quite as good but I believe SFC could beat USD in football this year, even in the dome.

I'm not saying they don't have high academic standards at NAIA schools. What I'm saying is that NAIA student-athletes are not held to the same academic rigors as NCAA student-athletes in order to be eligible to play sports. For example, NCAA D-I athletes are required to meet the standards of the 40/60/80 rule. This means that by the start of the 3rd year they must have 40% of their graduation requirements completed, 60% by their 4th year and 80% by their 5th year. I'd be happy to listen to an argument that can prove to me that NAIA student-athletes are held to a similar academic standard.

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I'm not saying they don't have high academic standards at NAIA schools. What I'm saying is that NAIA student-athletes are not held to the same academic rigors as NCAA student-athletes in order to be eligible to play sports. For example, NCAA D-I athletes are required to meet the standards of the 40/60/80 rule. This means that by the start of the 3rd year they must have 40% of their graduation requirements completed, 60% by their 4th year and 80% by their 5th year. I'd be happy to listen to an argument that can prove to me that NAIA student-athletes are held to a similar academic standard.

No I will not try to disprove your argument. The point I would make is that the vast majority of student athletes at NAIA schools are there for an education first and foremost. Very few have full ride scholarships as opposed to Div. I athletes. The whole reason for the rules you have quoted was because of the academic abuses that took place primarily at Div. I universities. We are all aware of the amount of money large universities make on their football programs. We are also quite aware of lousy graduation rates for many of them. There is little or no need for similiar rules at NAIA schools. These kids are there for a degree, When I entered college all of the freshmen football players I came with graduated within 4 years unless they were red shirted. The academic rigors are just as high if not higher than any state school. Oh and by the way my NAIA school defeated SDSU in football my freshmen year.
I still follow and support the Jacks and only wish them the best but I get a little annoyed when I hear talk about how lousy NAIA athletics are. Div I athletes are definately better in every sport but their not like "pro's" compared to high schoolers, so let's keep it in perspective. There are several NAIA schools in the area of eastern S.D. and NW Iowa that play a pretty good brand of athletics. They would give any Div II program fits.

[filbert]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

OK, here's how it works.



There's a normal distribution of athletes (actually, that's an assumption on my part. My guess is it's closer to a chi-squared distribution with the majority of all athletes towards the lower end of the athletic ability spectrum.)

Of course, assuming a chi-square distribution of the athlete population mainly just moves the average ability for the NAIA Division II, NCAA Division III, NAIA Division I, and NCAA Division II players further to the left, towards the lower athletic ability side of the graph. So, let's be charitable and assume the normal distribution, OK?

NCAA Division I has, on average, the best athletes, followed by NCAA Division II, followed by NAIA Division I, followed by NAIA Division II and NCAA Division III.

You can easily find individual examples of players who lie at both tails of the curve (could be in D-I but is in NAIA, and an end-of-the-bencher in D-I who could start in NAIA), but for every player at the tails, there are a hundred or more at the center of the curves. That's the point.

The point isn't that a very good NAIA team couldn't compete with, and possibly defeat an average NCAA Division I team. The point is that such an occurrence is very unlikely.

Like 147-7 unlikely.

My mind boggles at the thought that this is in any way controversial.

[jackmd]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I still follow and support the Jacks and only wish them the best but I get a little annoyed when I hear talk about how lousy NAIA athletics are. Div I athletes are definately better in every sport but their not like "pro's" compared to high schoolers, so let's keep it in perspective. There are several NAIA schools in the area of eastern S.D. and NW Iowa that play a pretty good brand of athletics. They would give any Div II program fits.

NAIA athletics aren't lousy and I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought they were. I agree that an NAIA program might beat a NCAA program on a given night regardless of division. It could happen. I also appreciate that DWU is having a good season. The point I was making is that the "expectation" has to be for SDSU to drill teams like DWU regardless of how good a season the lower division team is having. Games like DWU and UW-LaCrosse happen for a variety of reasons. Just ask the Steelers about equalizers. The field is a disaster in PA tonight.

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Let me add just one point where I think we may find agreement. The difficulties of travel associated with Div. I athletics are greater than in the NAIA. I truly admire student athletes that maintain high GPA's often times in rigorous academic areas. SDSU athletes continue to excel in this area, that is impressive.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I believe SFC could beat USD in football this year, even in the dome.

I'm not even remotely one to defend USD football, but that's a statement made by someone who doesn't understand college football. If they played 10 times, SFC maybe wins 1 or 2 times. Maybe. 3-4 of the games would be blowout wins for USD. The same reason SDSU would beat USD easily is the same reason USD would beat SFC easily. Bigger, faster, more skilled. Case in point: Morningside went from the laughingstock of the NCC to a perenial power after dropping out of DII. Laughingstock may be too kind. They were perenially horrible. Horrible.