DWU Now 5-2

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I'm not even remotely one to defend USD football, but that's a statement made by someone who doesn't understand college football. If they played 10 times, SFC maybe wins 1 or 2 times. Maybe. 3-4 of the games would be blowout wins for USD. The same reason SDSU would beat USD easily is the same reason USD would beat SFC easily. Bigger, faster, more skilled. Case in point: Morningside went from the laughingstock of the NCC to a perenial power after dropping out of DII. Laughingstock may be too kind. They were perenially horrible. Horrible.

Where and when has Morningside become a perenial power? In girls BB and VB their pretty good but where have they won any mens football or basketball championships. My alma mater (NWC) beat Morningside several years in a row in football in the 70's while they were still members of the NCC. By the way when was the last time you saw Sioux Falls play?
One can not just see a label (NAIA) and automatically decide inferior. I did not say that many or most NAIA teams would beat USD, I said I believe Sioux Falls would. Maybe I don't know college football well enough I only played for a team that beat the Jacks in football way back in the decade of 1970 so your probably right.
Check out the records between Morningside and Sioux Falls the last 10 years or so. I think Morningside won one game by a single point usually they were blown out by the Cougars but what do I know.

[jackmd]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Where and when has Morningside become a perenial power? In girls BB and VB their pretty good but where have they won any mens football or basketball championships. My alma mater (NWC) beat Morningside several years in a row in football in the 70's while they were still members of the NCC. By the way when was the last time you saw Sioux Falls play?
One can not just see a label (NAIA) and automatically decide inferior. I did not say that many or most NAIA teams would beat USD, I said I believe Sioux Falls would. Maybe I don't know college football well enough I only played for a team that beat the Jacks in football way back in the decade of 1970 so your probably right.
Check out the records between Morningside and Sioux Falls the last 10 years or so. I think Morningside won one game by a single point usually they were blown out by the Cougars but what do I know.

A complex perhaps? I think you might be seeing things from a biased standpoint as many of us here do. No fault in that.

USF fans and NAIA fans in general undertand that the level of competition week in and week out is lower at NAIA schools than at NCAA DI and DII schools. I have no doubt that USF could compete with a lot of DII programs and probably most of the non-scholarship FCS teams. I don't think they could consistently beat USD. They get a shot at Augie next year, don't they? My point, the NAIA option is a good one for some kids and USF has got things rolling well in most sports. Does that mean they would immediately be successful at a higher level? I think I've made my point clear as it pertains to this when discussing USD. I'm not suggesting USF or any other NAIA school should even consider moving up. I wish DWU continued success and I hope South Dakota schools at all levels compete for national titles, its great for all of us.

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I'm not even remotely one to defend USD football, but that's a statement made by someone who doesn't understand college football. If they played 10 times, SFC maybe wins 1 or 2 times. Maybe. 3-4 of the games would be blowout wins for USD. The same reason SDSU would beat USD easily is the same reason USD would beat SFC easily. Bigger, faster, more skilled. Case in point: Morningside went from the laughingstock of the NCC to a perenial power after dropping out of DII. Laughingstock may be too kind. They were perenially horrible. Horrible.

By the way the laughingstock of the NCC beat State in football 7 times between 1965 and 1990. A good record, no but much better than they have done against SF since.

[jackmd]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

By the way the laughingstock of the NCC beat State in football 7 times between 1965 and 1990. A good record, no but much better than they have done against SF since.

I'm not sure that is really relevant but perhaps it is. Maybe I'm not understanding the topic. Can we agree that DI and DII athletics are at a higher level as a whole than NAIA? Can we agree that it should be expected that SDSU and USD would beat local NAIA schools in all sports most of the time? Its kind of interesting to here the perspective of a former NAIA athlete. Has SDSU ever defeated the team you played for?

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I'm not sure that is really relevant but perhaps it is. Maybe I'm not understanding the topic. Can we agree that DI and DII athletics are at a higher level as a whole than NAIA? Can we agree that it should be expected that SDSU and USD would beat local NAIA schools in all sports most of the time? Its kind of interesting to here the perspective of a former NAIA athlete. Has SDSU ever defeated the team you played for?

Thank you for a reasoned discussion I enjoy and appreciate your logic. Your talking to a Jackrabbit fan here too. I only tend to argue when I see arrogance or ignorance. I totally agree that Div II is more competitve than NAIA, and that Div I is better than II. I was only arguing that the perennial dormat of the NCC knocked off the Jacks a lot more than they are doing to Sioux Falls. I still believe they could hold their own with USD not Grand Valley etc.
Yes we lost the next year 15-0. Go Jacks

[EQguy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

By the way the laughingstock of the NCC beat State in football 7 times between 1965 and 1990. A good record, no but much better than they have done against SF since.

My fault with this logic is that you allowed 35 years to pass with 7 victories. While Morningside has been NAIA for what, 10 - 15 years? Bring this up in about 20 more years and we'll talk about # of victories in USF v Morningside.

I have two stories to relate the two levels. First, I heard from some former players of SDSU that last year at the pro day Dusty Hvorka(sp?) came and tested out. The word I had was that his numbers were essentially laughable compared to the numbers the USD and SDSU players were putting up. Now we all know that testing numbers don't tell you everything about a player but it goes a long way in relating the speed/size/power at that level.
Second, Zach Campbell left SDSU because he saw there was no way he was going to get playing time here. He turned out to be an integral part of USF's offensive line for two or three years.

Best part is that next year we'll get a bit of an idea as USF and Augie will face off

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

My fault with this logic is that you allowed 35 years to pass with 7 victories. While Morningside has been NAIA for what, 10 - 15 years? Bring this up in about 20 more years and we'll talk about # of victories in USF v Morningside.

I have two stories to relate the two levels. First, I heard from some former players of SDSU that last year at the pro day Dusty Hvorka(sp?) came and tested out. The word I had was that his numbers were essentially laughable compared to the numbers the USD and SDSU players were putting up. Now we all know that testing numbers don't tell you everything about a player but it goes a long way in relating the speed/size/power at that level.
Second, Zach Campbell left SDSU because he saw there was no way he was going to get playing time here. He turned out to be an integral part of USF's offensive line for two or three years.

Best part is that next year we'll get a bit of an idea as USF and Augie will face off

Your right we will. You also might want to brush up on your math skills. Last time I checked that was 25 years.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Thank you for a reasoned discussion I enjoy and appreciate your logic. Your talking to a Jackrabbit fan here too. I only tend to argue when I see arrogance or ignorance. I totally agree that Div II is more competitve than NAIA, and that Div I is better than II. I was only arguing that the perennial dormat of the NCC knocked off the Jacks a lot more than they are doing to Sioux Falls. I still believe they could hold their own with USD not Grand Valley etc.
Yes we lost the next year 15-0. Go Jacks

For someone who purports to enjoy a reasoned discussion and logic, I'm not sure you actually use either reason or logic in your analysis. First off, I didn't think it was necessary to put a caveat on my "doormat" tag that I was talking about the 8-10 years leading up to Morningside's eventual downsizing to NAIA. They were the doormat of the NCC regardless of how many times they beat us in a 25 year period - which is also not relevant in any way. In fact, I would say that pointing out that Morningside had a .280 winning percentage against SDSU in a 25 year period actually proves my point that they were a doormat. Unless you consider a .280 winning percentage good? Also, how does comparing 25 years of SDSU football compare to 5 seasons of matchups between USF and Morningside? It doesn't. Give Morningside 25 years against USF and I'm guessing they could come pretty close to mustering up a .280 winning percentage. I guess time will tell.

However, that's not the point. The point is I think my "perenial power" statement is fairly accurate. I think Morningside's last 4 seasons would back me up on that claim. (I can't believe I'm arguing in favor of Morningslide.) Morningside's last 4 seasons resulted in the following win/loss records.

2004: 8-3
2005: 12-1
2006: 9-3
2007: 9-3 (including a 6 point loss to USF)

Not sure what you consider being a perenial power, but those records are pretty close to fitting anyone's definition. I didn't say Sioux Falls wasn't better, just that Morningside was garbage the last 10 years in the NCC and within 2 seasons at the NAIA level, went 8-3 and was recently only losing to USF by a mere 6 points. Seems to fall more on the side of proving my argument than yours. Again, someone who supposedly appreciates logic and reason would probably have to agree with me on that point.

Out of curiosity, what team did you play for in the 70's that beat SDSU? Not that it's an exclusive list and not sure how it pertains to an argument on how USF stacks up against USD, but I'm curious.

[gojacksgo]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Looking at the years from 1996-2000(in NCC), Morningside had 7 total wins. Of those, 6 were to Division 2 teams(with one of them coming against a team that has since moved down to division3)

2001 did not have varsity football.

Their first year in the GPAC for football, they had 5 wins(with one coming against a D2 school).


I'm not sure if they USF could beat USD - I would say no. I think the USF/Augie game should be a good one though.

[boxerboy]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

Looking at the years from 1996-2000(in NCC), Morningside had 7 total wins. Of those, 6 were to Division 2 teams(with one of them coming against a team that has since moved down to division3)

2001 did not have varsity football.

Their first year in the GPAC for football, they had 5 wins(with one coming against a D2 school).


I'm not sure if they USF could beat USD - I would say no. I think the USF/Augie game should be a good one though.

Okay, this will be my last post on the subject it seems I have angered or at least annoyed some but that's okay. I would appreciate if you would read all my previous posts on this subject because I stated my alma mater was also regularly defeating Morningside back in the decade of the seventies.
I am a Northwestern College grad which I also thought I had stated earlier.
My point is not that NAIA is as good as Div II I have never even hinted at that, (which I also made clear earlier.) I also want to make sure everyone knows that USF (I guess that's what they call themselves now) is not an ordinary NAIA team. Much as my Alma Mater in the seventies wasn't.
What's the point? The point is NAIA football some years back, in the area I grew up in was pretty good football ( just like USF today). Is it Division II caliber? No, but on occasion there are teams that will compete with the likes of NCC schools as we proved in 1973. That being said I only wanted to give props to USF who has played Morningside many more than four times and has beaten them all but once and nearly always by large margins with a much better overall winning percentage (against Morningside) than State did. I was not trying to say that somehow the NAIA was a better class of football like some of you seem to think I said. If that somehow offends SDSU fans too bad. I thought you had left the NCC behind but somehow I got you all to defend it. Now if Augie beats USF fine but let's see what kind of a team each have next year too. I am talking about this year and that's what makes these discussions so doggone interesting because no one will ever know for sure.
I only ask that guys like "Milwaukee Jack" understand that even some of us old guys may know a thing or two about the game. I am old but I never wore a leather helmet. Its been fun, I hope we can civilly agree to disagree on some subjects without insulting our football IQ's. I still say go Jacks also go Red Raiders in the NAIA.

[2002jack]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

We should quit worrying about USF and worry more about how we can compete against the Gateway. Let's end this thread. We are NCAA DI and they are NAIA D2 or D1.....I don't even know. Is there two divisions in NAIA? Either way, we should dominate DWU in basketball.

[filbert]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

We should quit worrying about USF and worry more about how we can compete against the Gateway. Let's end this thread. We are NCAA DI and they are NAIA D2 or D1.....I don't even know. Is there two divisions in NAIA? Either way, we should dominate DWU in basketball.

Well, if nothing else comes from this thread, then people will have learned that yes, Virginia, there are two divisions of NAIA. Division I has more scholarships available to them, NAIA Division II is what's played by schools in South Dakota. Division I of NAIA play their championship tournament in the historic Municipal Auditorium in Kansas City. I've worked it as a volunteer. Pretty decent basketball, really. Not NCAA Division I, but there's a lot of talent on the floor, much of it wildly undisciplined and badly coached.

So, to summarize, schools like DWU aren't even at the highest level of NAIA basketball.

Ironic, huh?

[joeboo22]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

The one thing that NAIA has against D-I and D-II is they are not sanctioned NCAA teams so they are allowed to practice more often and coaches are allowed to have more control over the situation. generally the majority of the players are local and a lot of them were friends before they came to college.... The point being is early in the year you see NAIA teams compete with D-II teams and lower level D-I teams but I would be willing to bet that later in the year the D-I and D-II teams blow them out of the water... And yes there are exceptions..... Morningside is a weird one though because they have really took off in the NAIA ranks since dropping from D-II I think this is because they are private.... You see it with USF and other private schools I don't know this forsure but it just seems like they offer a lot of kids scholarships and I think that the colleges being private help..... Money dictates a lot in the NAIA all the football playoff games are bid they are ranked in the playoffs but money is also considered and so on.

[gojacksgo]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

I read the whole thread, and I think you have a point. Can a NAIA team play with a D2(or D1 team) - Yes - They can. Is it always going to happen? No I don't think so. The best NAIA teams(which includes USF) could have had a good game with d2(and D1) --- they could even WIN!

I didn't know my opinion on who would win between USD and USF was such a reach - Did I blast you for your opionion?(Please show) We have given you an opinion, but everytime someone else has an opinion, it is wrong????? I stated facts on Morningside's record - playing the same schedule, could USD have gone at least 8-2 this year? Who could they have lost to?

Graduating from Dakota State University, am I supposed to think that your 2005 football team was only 8 points better than ours? On your basis, that is exactly right, although we were horrible, and went on to the cellar of the weak DAC....

I guess I just need to give Northwestern some love right now....Great job Northwestern! Keep up your great work!

[Nidaros]

Re: DWU Now 5-2

When I started this thread, I had no idea how many replies would be added. After a few, I thought it was done, but now page 5 and all sorts of discussion. I really dont have any more to add.