ND legislature and Sioux name

[OKC_Poke]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Stupid analogy time. In bad fantasy books and video games, the hero needs to complete a series of quests before taking on the Big Bad. Those quests often are to locate items that will be brought together to form The Ultimate Weapontm, which is the only thing that can destroy the source of the BB's power. In this case, the SBoHE is the hero, the legislature is the BB, and the nickname law is the power source. Before attempting to defeat the law, the hero must assemble the weapon. The SBoHE took care of the piece from the NCAA. They sent their best friend and plucky sidekick Kelley to retrieve the piece from the Big Sky Sages. I suspect a mission will soon be undertaken to the dark and backwards regions of Minnesota and Wisconsin to get fragments from poor fools who spend their lives on ice (written confirmation that UM & UW will not schedule UND in hockey once the BTHC is formed). Once all the pieces are assembled, the hero will forge the weapon in front of the highest court in the land(no, the other one) while being cheered on by all the people of the village. If he succeeds, the villain will be struck down, never to be heard from again, and the land of UND can once again return to it's hope of building the finest castle in the land(DI transition) with its new allies(Big Sky).

Wow, was that crappy.

Actually it wasn't "crappy" at all. Surprisingly it helped me understand this entire mess UND is in. Thank you.

And I thought Oklahoma was a screwed up state......

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I have my doubts that the NCAA's letter to UND was written at the behest of Kelley.

However, I think it's interesting that this notion is somewhat plausible, and IMO, it doesn't reflect well on Kelley.

The NCAA letter was not at the behest of Kelley. My argument is that the SBoHE wants things to come to a head as quickly as possible. A couple months ago, the board did a complete 180 and started pushing for use of the name. They went out of the way to hurriedly issue a reactivation of the Sioux name and logo trademarks. They said it was because the manufacturers needed the lead time to produce merchandise and uniforms, but I think it had more to do with clearly sending the NCAA a message. The SBoHE wanted something in writing from the NCAA, and the trademark announcement was the prod that achieved it. As for the Big Sky, if(fairly big if) Kelley did ask them for something in writing, it was at the behest of the SBoHE, not an attempt to undercut them.


Stupid analogy time. In bad fantasy books and video games, the hero needs to complete a series of quests before taking on the Big Bad. Those quests often are to locate items that will be brought together to form The Ultimate Weapontm, which is the only thing that can destroy the source of the BB's power. In this case, the SBoHE is the hero, the legislature is the BB, and the nickname law is the power source. Before attempting to defeat the law, the hero must assemble the weapon. The SBoHE took care of the piece from the NCAA. They sent their best friend and plucky sidekick Kelley to retrieve the piece from the Big Sky Sages. I suspect a mission will soon be undertaken to the dark and backwards regions of Minnesota and Wisconsin to get fragments from poor fools who spend their lives on ice (written confirmation that UM & UW will not schedule UND in hockey once the BTHC is formed). Once all the pieces are assembled, the hero will forge the weapon in front of the highest court in the land(no, the other one) while being cheered on by all the people of the village. If he succeeds, the villain will be struck down, never to be heard from again, and the land of UND can once again return to it's hope of building the finest castle in the land(DI transition) with its new allies(Big Sky).

Wow, was that crappy.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

the actions(cooperation?) of the NCAA

I have my doubts that the NCAA's letter to UND was written at the behest of Kelley.

However, I think it's interesting that this notion is somewhat plausible, and IMO, it doesn't reflect well on Kelley.

[MinnJack]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

SDSU won't be playing FB at UND as planned in 2013 if this issue is not resolved. I think that was part of the original agreement.

Here's a link to that Grand Forks Herald article, which says,

"If the nickname stays, South Dakota State reportedly has issues with scheduling UND beyond the contracted 2013 football game between the Sioux and Jackrabbits."

http://www.grandforksherald.com/even...cle/id/206437/

It looks like SDSU is committed to playing UND in 2013 and then will be done after that. I assume this would stretch to all sports and would affect many of them in scheduling. Soccer (exhibition), volleyball (NDSU tourney), baseball (home and home), softball, and swimming and diving all scheduled the Sioux last season.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The political situation up here is a little more complex than that. When I try to explain it to people outside those of us that are following it closely on BV and elsewhere, I stress that the current mess isn't about Kelley, UND, or the nickname. The mess is solely about a power struggle between the ND legislature and the ND State Board of Higher Ed. Everything has to be viewed from that perspective. In this situation, Kelley is not his own man, but an extension of the SBoHE. Some of his actions may look questionable when taken alone, but become more understandable when viewed as part of a larger battleplan.

Looking at it in a different way(the 2:30am kinda way), Kelley reminds me of Dante "I'm not even supposed to be here today" Hicks from Clerks. UND's previous president tried to wrap up the university's three job killers just before his (somewhat early) retirement. He pushed through the construction of a new president's house, finally agreed to the DI move, and signed the settlement agreement that should've put the nickname issue to bed. Any one of the three could have cost him his job(one of the three claimed our pres), so he took one for the team so that the next pres wouldn't come in as a lame duck. Except the legislature screwed up the plan, and now Kelley is stuck holding the bag. I have a hard time believing Kelley will still be there three years from now. I think this will be his poison pill.

I have nothing good to say about our legislature, but I think our SBoHE has done a surprisingly good job considering the situation. They have been walking a minefield, and I think they've only made one small mistake. At one point, some legislators who had opposed the nickname law wrote to the ND attorney general to ask him for his opinion on the legality and constitutionality of the law. Because the SBoHE had just announced that they were going to discuss the possibility of challenging the law in their upcoming meeting, the AG was able to use that info to refuse the lawmakers' request citing the possibility of litigation. While it's probable the AG would've found some other reason to avoid the request without the SBoHE announcement, it still could be viewed as a misstep. The SBoHE has also been helped in my opinion by the actions(cooperation?) of the NCAA, the media in the RRV, and possibly the Big Sky.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I agree with most of what you've written but not with all of the last sentence.

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit.

Frankly, I'm inclined to side with Jane Austen on this one: "There is one thing, Emma, which a man can always do, if he chuses, and that is, his duty; not by manoeuvring and finessing, but by vigour and resolution"

Kelley can't solve this nickname issue.

What Kelley was free to do was to articulate a policy for the university that would stand in sharp contrast to the nickname proponents, instead he publicly voiced support while privately seeking to undermine the nickname....

Kelley was placed in a losing position---he has no control over the nickname, but will bear the brunt of the blame regardless. (of course it's richly ironic that the body which stripped Kelley's predecessor of that authority under methods of dubious legality has itself been stripped of that authority by other methods, similarly questionable).

The only thing he's been able to do, the only freedom permitted him in this situation is to demonstrate his character.

'Spineless' is too cruel a word, but this situation certainly hasn't cast him as a man of principle, or a man of his word.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I think yes.

It's not the ADs here, it's the presidents. With the ADs, it's about travel budgets, not necessarily so with the presidents. The presidents, I think, were assured that they were getting a solid university in a responsible state.

UND is a Phi Beta Kappa school, they've got a med school, a law school, a $100M research budget. North Dakota's operating with a budget surplus. It's an attractive package in that respect.

Of course, what they got was a spineless school with a spineless administrative body, and a thoroughly insane legislature supported by a small but absurdly rabid fanbase.

I agree with most of what you've written but not with all of the last sentence. I have a little sympathy for the administration -- seems to me Pres. Kelly was dealt a bad hand and did the best one could do under the circumstances. The school resolved its differences with the NCAA and was moving forward sans nickname...and then the legislature got involved (insane, on this one topic, is probably pretty accurate), pandering to a small but absurdly unreasonable and, as zooropa wrote, rabid fanbase.

According to various measures, UND is a good academic institution. In many respects, it is rated higher than SDSU, USD or NDSU (I may not agree with such assessments but some parties who are relatively objective reached such conclusions). Now, the place is at risk for being known as the school with the nickname/logo fight and any accomplishments in academics may be forgotten.

Remember when SDSU's President Peggy Miller and AD Fred Oien talked about how the move to D-1 will enhance the reputation of the University? Well, UND is currently presenting the example of how significant fouling up in athletics can depress the reputation of the university.

[FargoBison]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The Big Sky didn't sign up for the nickname controversy, the Big Sky presidents are smart enough to let UND leave before they have to deal with it. Seriously who wants to deal with the press talking about UND's nickname issue instead of conference events, or have protestors outside of their school's athletic facilities and if one of their fans starts chanting "Sioux Suck" or does something creative with UND's nickname or logo it is an issue they'll have to deal with and UND will make a stink about it because nobody can do anything that makes the nickname look bad.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Would the Big Sky be as against this if USD had joined? Probably not.

I think yes.

It's not the ADs here, it's the presidents. With the ADs, it's about travel budgets, not necessarily so with the presidents. The presidents, I think, were assured that they were getting a solid university in a responsible state.

UND is a Phi Beta Kappa school, they've got a med school, a law school, a $100M research budget. North Dakota's operating with a budget surplus. It's an attractive package in that respect.

Of course, what they got was a spineless school with a spineless administrative body, and a thoroughly insane legislature supported by a small but absurdly rabid fanbase.

[joeboo22]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If the Big Sky didn't like UND's moniker, why did their press release trumpeting the addition of UND and So. Utah include a Fighting Sioux head instead of the a generic "ND" or the university's academic logo?

http://www.bigskyconf.com/news/2010/...101105326.aspx

Sounds like the BS Conference just felt the need to cut that extra limb off since they got jilted by USD.

I think its a little of both. Would the Big Sky be as against this if USD had joined? Probably not. However I still think UND is screwing the pooch on this one. They knew that this would be an issue anyways, and made it worse.

[NightHawk78]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If the Big Sky didn't like UND's moniker, why did their press release trumpeting the addition of UND and So. Utah include a Fighting Sioux head instead of the a generic "ND" or the university's academic logo?

http://www.bigskyconf.com/news/2010/...101105326.aspx

Sounds like the BS Conference just felt the need to cut that extra limb off since they got jilted by USD.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Some selections from the Sioux Sports board.....

"Not a peep out of the Big Sky about UND's nickname.

As stated numerous times before, the Big Sky - nor almost any other league - doesn't care."

"According to a Jon Kasper, Assistant Commissioner in charge of Media Relations for the Big Sky Conference, the nickname has not been an issue for anyone in the Big Sky. "

"If the ND AG does in fact sue the NCAA for anti-trust as the law states he needs to, is the Big Sky fearful about offering UND shelter? "

"I think it's pretty cheap that the Big Sky waits until now to spring this on us."

"It's a UND fan on UND fan crime and that's just dumb."

"Go ahead and when they get the NCAA to compromise"

"I too would like to know exactly what the NCAA is saying to Big Sky leadership. "

"Rumors are floating around message boards in support of UND getting a WAC invite."

"You know, there is a certain appeal to beating NDSU to FBS. The WAC needs teams like UND"

"going to the WAC with the Fighting Sioux nickname does bear some consideration versus dropping the name to get into the Big Sky"

---

Of course, there are also sane UND fans, and a few nickname supporters who have come 'round.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

You're right, MD...I saw a link to an article in the Grand Forks Herald making that statement.

I caught some of the UND AD's appearance on a talk show at 1:00 p.m. today on WDAY radio (Fargo). The guy didn't sugar-coat anything: they're in a mess. He said UND will not violate the new legislation so that means they're on a collision course with the conference and NCAA. I think I heard him to say they're trying to arrange a meeting with the NCAA (or the conference?) but I didn't hear a lot of optimism in his voice.

The prime sponsor of the legislation, Rep. Carlson from Fargo, said he'd vote the same if the vote had followed the Big Sky announcement handed out last week.

[jackmd]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

SDSU won't be playing FB at UND as planned in 2013 if this issue is not resolved. I think that was part of the original agreement.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Just keep those knuckleheads out of the Summit/MVFC, I don't want their taint to foul up a good thing, and I'm sure ORU, Oakland, UNI, SIU, etc feel the same.

One has to keep in mind that the present dilemma was set up by the North Dakota legislature -- not UND. UND was ready to move on per the court settlement. [UND's reputation, however, will take it on the chin.]

That same legislature could come up with more screwy laws like, maybe forcing NDSU and UND to play each year.