ND legislature and Sioux name

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

This is one time I will stand with the NCAA leadership. This meeting was to be closed in attempt to reach some solution, but when it became an open meeting, it becomes a media circus in which its everyone is against the NCAA. Can you say tar and feathers and necktie party? Can you not blame the NCAA officals for cancelling their flight to North Dakota?

Right arrogance rules in the North Dakota legislature. I watch PBS last evening here in North Dakota. There was an interview with the Minority leader, Glassheim, from Grand Forks. He told of how the majority leadership where chipping away at the executive branch of government by instisting that they be part of excutitive committees normally appointed by governor and did not involve in law making, but rather policy. I believe he was one of those who voted against the law making the logo mandatory. Al Carlson one of the legislature leaders is a big NDSU supporter but gets all kinds of mileage and support for pushing the permance of the logo.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I find all this "Sioux" stuff very funny with the NCAA.

The NCAA says the UND must get rid of the Sioux and not use the logo but....... last week durning the Frozen Four; the NCAA was "SELLING" UND Fighting Sioux stuff on its website with the indian head logo.

Open mouth - accept foot.

They didn't have a choice. Had the NCAA refused to sell UND Sioux merchandise while selling similar items from other schools, they would have been in breech of the settlement. The settlement says UND has until August to stop using the name. If the NCAA starts treating them differently before that date, UND would have cause to sue.

As for Shaft(VP of our Board of Regents), I think he's on to something. Since the meeting fell apart, it's my opinion that our board is deliberately trying to get the NCAA to move UND onto the sanctions list as quickly as possible. The law our morons in Bismarck passed requires the state's attorney general to file an anti-trust lawsuit against the NCAA if they do anything to punish UND. The law is unconstitutional, illegal and unenforceable. The quicker it comes before a judge, the quicker it's invalidated. As a bonus, if this all happens before or shortly after our legislature adjourns, it might do some political damage to the idiots infesting Bismarck.

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

As for Shaft(VP of our Board of Regents), I think he's on to something.

Isn't he the guy from Fargo that has supported the nickname in the past?

Also, how could this law be declared unconstitutional? What aspect of the ND constitution does it violate? It certainly seems square with the US constitution.

[FargoBison]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Isn't he the guy from Fargo that has supported the nickname in the past?

Also, how could this law be declared unconstitutional? What aspect of the ND constitution does it violate? It certainly seems square with the US constitution.

Article VIII of the ND constitution...

“The said state board of higher education shall have full authority over the institutions under its control….the state board shall have the power to delegate to its employees details of administration….the board shall have full authority to organize and reorganize the work of each institution….and do each and everything necessary and proper for the efficient and economic administration of said state educational institutions.”

http://m.grandforksherald.com/article.cfm?id=197488

[zooropa]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Thanks.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Isn't he the guy from Fargo that has supported the nickname in the past?

Also, how could this law be declared unconstitutional? What aspect of the ND constitution does it violate? It certainly seems square with the US constitution.

I'm not certain about the first part, but I don't think so. If Shaft has said much about the nickname, I think it's been mostly neutral politico-speech.

For the second part, FargoBison gave you the ND constitution reference, but maybe a little history lesson can help those of you following this mess. Prior to the 1930's, the ND university system was just another part of the ND government. But in the late 30's, some people at NDAC(NDSU) pissed off the governor of the time, Bill Langer. Langer was the on-again, off-again leader of the socialist NPL party that ran ND for brief periods of time in the teens and 30's. Well, Langer got his panties in a bunch and decided to punish NDAC by slashing its funding by over half, personally firing about a third of the tenured faculty, forcing the resignation of the president, and placing the sitting UND president in charge. This kind of political interference caused NDAC's accrediting body to pull its accreditation.

In reaction, students and alumni of NDAC started a grassroots campaign to amend the ND constitution to remove the university system from direct control of the governor and legislature. Some of the sections indicated by ellipses in FargoBison's quote of the amendment include requirements to provide adequate funding to the system and the like. Some call the university system the fourth branch of the ND government because of the independence written into the ND constitution. This didn't stop the legislature from keeping their fingers in the pie, however. Funding still comes from them, and they used that power to push for their favorite campuses and programs. The next great change happened sometime in the 90's.

Through the 80's and the 90's, the university system was pretty much just stagnating, and the economy in ND wasn't any better. As a way to re-engineer the university system into a force for ND growth, a group was formed that was a mix of legislators, university officials, business leaders and others. It's usually referred to as the Higher-Ed Roundtable. After months of talking(maybe even a year or two), they came up with several changes to the system. Probably the biggest change was a greater degree of local control to the campus presidents. Also, individual funding decisions were totally taken away from the legislature. Gone were the days were state reps could shuffle funding from one campus to another depending on how good each president was at lobbying. As a result, the ND university system entered arguably its greatest period of growth and prosperity in its history. There have been a few bumps along the way, but those pale in comparison to the immense benefit the Roundtable has brought.

Well, some current legislators aren't happy with the relative autonomy of the university system. Facts and figures don't interest them; it's more of an ideological thing. Personally, I just think they're power-hungry. Carlson, the rep who sponsored the nickname bill, also sponsored a bill to abolish the State Board of Higher Ed and the Department of Public Instruction(K-12) and combine them into a new department of education that would be run by a council basically hand picked by the political leadership(always Republican in ND). Another reason for this desire is that the longtime head of the DPI is a Democrat and no Republican challenger has been able to unseat him(it's an elected position). The abolishment bill would have required a statewide vote to amend the constitution again, and Carlson was hoping to engender enough anger through the nickname fiasco to get the votes to pass it. Well, the state senate defeated the bill a couple weeks ago, so his plans won't come to fruition this time around, but we still have to clean up the nickname mess.

This political nightmare is what the NCAA was going to walk into had they decided to come to the open meeting next Friday.

[SturgisJeff]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

in this day and age does the constitutionality of any law matter. seems to be just words. constitutional laws are overturned while the unconstitutional ones stand in most cases. depends on the leaning of the judge at the time.

[Nidaros]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I'm not certain about the first part, but I don't think so. If Shaft has said much about the nickname, I think it's been mostly neutral politico-speech.

For the second part, FargoBison gave you the ND constitution reference, but maybe a little history lesson can help those of you following this mess. Prior to the 1930's, the ND university system was just another part of the ND government. But in the late 30's, some people at NDAC(NDSU) pissed off the governor of the time, Bill Langer. Langer was the on-again, off-again leader of the socialist NPL party that ran ND for brief periods of time in the teens and 30's. Well, Langer got his panties in a bunch and decided to punish NDAC by slashing its funding by over half, personally firing about a third of the tenured faculty, forcing the resignation of the president, and placing the sitting UND president in charge. This kind of political interference caused NDAC's accrediting body to pull its accreditation.

In reaction, students and alumni of NDAC started a grassroots campaign to amend the ND constitution to remove the university system from direct control of the governor and legislature. Some of the sections indicated by ellipses in FargoBison's quote of the amendment include requirements to provide adequate funding to the system and the like. Some call the university system the fourth branch of the ND government because of the independence written into the ND constitution. This didn't stop the legislature from keeping their fingers in the pie, however. Funding still comes from them, and they used that power to push for their favorite campuses and programs. The next great change happened sometime in the 90's.

Through the 80's and the 90's, the university system was pretty much just stagnating, and the economy in ND wasn't any better. As a way to re-engineer the university system into a force for ND growth, a group was formed that was a mix of legislators, university officials, business leaders and others. It's usually referred to as the Higher-Ed Roundtable. After months of talking(maybe even a year or two), they came up with several changes to the system. Probably the biggest change was a greater degree of local control to the campus presidents. Also, individual funding decisions were totally taken away from the legislature. Gone were the days were state reps could shuffle funding from one campus to another depending on how good each president was at lobbying. As a result, the ND university system entered arguably its greatest period of growth and prosperity in its history. There have been a few bumps along the way, but those pale in comparison to the immense benefit the Roundtable has brought.

Well, some current legislators aren't happy with the relative autonomy of the university system. Facts and figures don't interest them; it's more of an ideological thing. Personally, I just think they're power-hungry. Carlson, the rep who sponsored the nickname bill, also sponsored a bill to abolish the State Board of Higher Ed and the Department of Public Instruction(K-12) and combine them into a new department of education that would be run by a council basically hand picked by the political leadership(always Republican in ND). Another reason for this desire is that the longtime head of the DPI is a Democrat and no Republican challenger has been able to unseat him(it's an elected position). The abolishment bill would have required a statewide vote to amend the constitution again, and Carlson was hoping to engender enough anger through the nickname fiasco to get the votes to pass it. Well, the state senate defeated the bill a couple weeks ago, so his plans won't come to fruition this time around, but we still have to clean up the nickname mess.

This political nightmare is what the NCAA was going to walk into had they decided to come to the open meeting next Friday.

This is indeed interesting. I have heard of Gov Langer and his non-partisan League, but had no idea that lean towards being a flickertail

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

in this day and age does the constitutionality of any law matter. seems to be just words. constitutional laws are overturned while the unconstitutional ones stand in most cases. depends on the leaning of the judge at the time.

Geez, Sturgis Jeff...little too much Fox news in the diet? Can you give us an example of a constitutional law being found unconstitutional? Or, do you mean there are laws you agree with but an appellate court did not (a pretty safe statement for just about all of us)?

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Is SDSU scheduling UND in any sports? I wonder if any contingency plans have been developed to address the potential for UND to not advance in transition to DI.

[joeboo22]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Is SDSU scheduling UND in any sports? I wonder if any contingency plans have been developed to address the potential for UND to not advance in transition to DI.

Football and baseball but the football game may have been bought out with UND getting into the Big Sky (at least for now), baseball would be 1 year deals and would probably continued to be played if they are D-II. As far as other sports my guess is they are all 1 year deals and would just either be played as them being a non-counter or dropped.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Geez, Sturgis Jeff...little too much Fox news in the diet? Can you give us an example of a constitutional law being found unconstitutional? Or, do you mean there are laws you agree with but an appellate court did not (a pretty safe statement for just about all of us)?

I don't watch foxnews or even have cable. I get most of my news from Reddit.com, which seems very left leaning.

When Supreme Courts routinely split 5-4 with the usual suspects on each side, I don't think its far-fetched to assume that personal opinions often play a major role in how judges rule on cases.

If personal opinions play a role, the logical conclusion would be that at least some laws get struck down that should be upheld, and laws get upheld that should get struck down.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I don't watch foxnews or even have cable. I get most of my news from Reddit.com, which seems very left leaning.

When Supreme Courts routinely split 5-4 with the usual suspects on each side, I don't think its far-fetched to assume that personal opinions often play a major role in how judges rule on cases.

If personal opinions play a role, the logical conclusion would be that at least some laws get struck down that should be upheld, and laws get upheld that should get struck down.

I was playing with the "constitutional laws are found unconstitutional" comment. If the highest court in the land says a law is unconstitutional, then it isn't constitutional. Or, if the Supremes say a law is constitutional: guess what. What is interpreted as constitutional or unconstitutional can certainly vary based on the makeup of the court, facts of the specific case that brought the controversy to the court, the day and age in which the controversy is considered. Constitutional principles aren't always as set in cement as some would like.

When most of us get upset about a court decision, its because something we like was tossed out or something we didn't like was upheld. In the meantime, a pretty-good university remains embroiled in a controversy when all it probably wants to do is educate its students and provide some entertainment through athletics.

This thread has been about the ND legislative action requiring the saving of the Sioux name for UND. It certainly appears that the legislation flies in the face of a North Dakota constitutional provision. Will the ND Supreme Court get a chance to review the law? Will it work hard to try to figure out a way to uphold the law?

It's tremendous theatre. Glad it's up north and not an issue for our State. And, the bottom line may well be: the NCAA doesn't care.

[SturgisJeff]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Geez, Sturgis Jeff...little too much Fox news in the diet? Can you give us an example of a constitutional law being found unconstitutional? Or, do you mean there are laws you agree with but an appellate court did not (a pretty safe statement for just about all of us)?

whats wrong with FoxNews. It is no worse than CNN and MSNBC and their "fair and balanced" news. you know the unbiased, non partisan, thrill up my leg channels.

[JackJD]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Just my off-beat sense of humor. Certainly all the news networks can be criticised. It just seems to me Fox newsreaders are a little more likely to say a constitutional law is unconstitutional (okay, English majors, isn't that a non-sequitur?)