ND legislature and Sioux name

[Jacks-02]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The NCAA has no consistency on this issue.

Acceptable:

Central Michigan Chippawas
Florida St Seminoles
SDSU Aztecs
Illinois Illini
William and Mary Tribe

Notre Dame FIGHTING Irish

Unacceptable:

North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Mississippi (Ole Miss) Rebels
Ark St. Indians

Please show me how any of these are acceptable and UND Fighting Sioux are not. The "tribes ok'ed the nickname" arguement is lame, as Sioux tribes approve. Rather than tell UND that they can't be the Fighting Sioux, can they be the Sioux (no fighting)? The NCAA is a monopoly business, that begs for better oversight. A state government vs NCAA should help reel in the powerful NCAA.

The Spirit Lake tribe has approved, the Standing Rock tribe has not, which is why the NCAA isn't allowing them to keep it.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The NCAA has no consistency on this issue.

Acceptable:

Central Michigan Chippawas
Florida St Seminoles
SDSU Aztecs
Illinois Illini
William and Mary Tribe

Notre Dame FIGHTING Irish

Unacceptable:

North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Mississippi (Ole Miss) Rebels
Ark St. Indians

Please show me how any of these are acceptable and UND Fighting Sioux are not. The "tribes ok'ed the nickname" arguement is lame, as Sioux tribes approve. Rather than tell UND that they can't be the Fighting Sioux, can they be the Sioux (no fighting)? The NCAA is a monopoly business, that begs for better oversight. A state government vs NCAA should help reel in the powerful NCAA.

I certainly don't condone how UND has handled this, but the NCAA bully's those they can. Do you think for a minute they would take on Florida State or Illinois? How about allowing Ohio State to suspend their football players next year instead of for the bowl game. It's all about the money and who brings it in.

[rabidrabbit]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The Spirit Lake tribe has approved, the Standing Rock tribe has not, which is why the NCAA isn't allowing them to keep it.

If you read the UND name thread at SS, the Standing Rock leaders refuse to put it to a vote because of the likelihood that the tribal members would approve. This is a minority (the leaders???) dictating a position not supported by the majority.

[tjbison]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If you read the UND name thread at SS, the Standing Rock leaders refuse to put it to a vote because of the likelihood that the tribal members would approve. This is a minority (the leaders???) dictating a position not supported by the majority.

The Standing rock tribe has it in its "constitution" that the elected Tribal leaders speak for the entire people, IT DOES NOT need to go to a vote of the people in the Standing Rock Tribe that is key in this, and I personally don't believe it would pass anyways from my source who is very into this issue

[mango4]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The NCAA has no consistency on this issue.

Acceptable:

Central Michigan Chippawas
Florida St Seminoles
SDSU Aztecs
Illinois Illini
William and Mary Tribe

Notre Dame FIGHTING Irish

Unacceptable:

North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Mississippi (Ole Miss) Rebels
Ark St. Indians

Please show me how any of these are acceptable and UND Fighting Sioux are not. The "tribes ok'ed the nickname" arguement is lame, as Sioux tribes approve. Rather than tell UND that they can't be the Fighting Sioux, can they be the Sioux (no fighting)? The NCAA is a monopoly business, that begs for better oversight. A state government vs NCAA should help reel in the powerful NCAA.

I've never understood why the Irish always get brought up in the name situation. Their name isn't offensive at all.

[Jacks-02]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

If you read the UND name thread at SS, the Standing Rock leaders refuse to put it to a vote because of the likelihood that the tribal members would approve. This is a minority (the leaders???) dictating a position not supported by the majority.

Doesn't matter what the likelihood of anything is, the fact is it's only been approved by one of the two tribes that are required by the NCAA to allow them to keep it.

You can't blame the NCAA for strong arming UND on this one, they haven't met the requirements that other schools who have retained their names have.

[joeboo22]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

The NCAA has no consistency on this issue.

Acceptable:

Central Michigan Chippawas
Florida St Seminoles
SDSU Aztecs
Illinois Illini
William and Mary Tribe

Notre Dame FIGHTING Irish

Unacceptable:

North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Mississippi (Ole Miss) Rebels
Ark St. Indians

Please show me how any of these are acceptable and UND Fighting Sioux are not. The "tribes ok'ed the nickname" arguement is lame, as Sioux tribes approve. Rather than tell UND that they can't be the Fighting Sioux, can they be the Sioux (no fighting)? The NCAA is a monopoly business, that begs for better oversight. A state government vs NCAA should help reel in the powerful NCAA.

my guess is some of it has to do with the name as well.

Aztecs- the Aztec Indians no longer exist and there descendants that are still alive are in Mexico and Central America

Illini- does not consist of a name of Indian but just those that reside in Illinois, (however their mascot has to go)

Tribe- more of an honorary and appropriate name among the Native Culture

Seminoles and Chippewas I'm not sure on

While the Sioux, Rebels and Indians were not names given to the culture and are more slang and inappropriate among their culture.

To the Sioux people they'd prefer Lakota, Eastern Dakota (Nakota) and Western Dakota (Dakota)

The Sioux name was given to white people by rival tribes from the east, they described them as Sioux or snake like, very sneaky.
(I hope I got this right)

So you can understand why a tribe would be more likely to denounce some names rather then others.

[tjbison]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

my guess is some of it has to do with the name as well.

Aztecs- the Aztec Indians no longer exist and there descendants that are still alive are in Mexico and Central America

Illini- does not consist of a name of Indian but just those that reside in Illinois, (however their mascot has to go)

Tribe- more of an honorary and appropriate name among the Native Culture

Seminoles and Chippewas I'm not sure on

While the Sioux, Rebels and Indians were not names given to the culture and are more slang and inappropriate among their culture.

To the Sioux people they'd prefer Lakota, Eastern Dakota (Nakota) and Western Dakota (Dakota)

The Sioux name was given to white people by rival tribes from the east, they described them as Sioux or snake like, very sneaky.
(I hope I got this right)

So you can understand why a tribe would be more likely to denounce some names rather then others.

Your are pretty much correct, Sioux is basically French for Snake in the grass, which is why they don't like it used. I can't blame them as it does get used badly. If they wer actually named after a tribe it probably would never get changed.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

my guess is some of it has to do with the name as well.

Aztecs- the Aztec Indians no longer exist and there descendants that are still alive are in Mexico and Central America

Illini- does not consist of a name of Indian but just those that reside in Illinois, (however their mascot has to go)

Tribe- more of an honorary and appropriate name among the Native Culture

Seminoles and Chippewas I'm not sure on

While the Sioux, Rebels and Indians were not names given to the culture and are more slang and inappropriate among their culture.

To the Sioux people they'd prefer Lakota, Eastern Dakota (Nakota) and Western Dakota (Dakota)

The Sioux name was given to white people by rival tribes from the east, they described them as Sioux or snake like, very sneaky.
(I hope I got this right)

So you can understand why a tribe would be more likely to denounce some names rather then others.

William & Mary: They had to drop the name or drop all NA imagery associated with it. They chose the latter. Same thing went with colleges that used the nickname "Braves". They could keep the name if they changed the imagery.

CMU & FSU: The NCAA originally told them they had to change, then backed off after the Seminole tribe of Florida complained. It was the reaction of the Seminoles that created the tribal approval exception than UND was not able to achieve.


I think the NCAA thought pattern goes something like this:

There are four categories of nicknames/mascots

1. Non-human: Animals, colors, emotions, etc. These don't need any approval and never will.

2. Specific human groups from very long ago or broad categories: Trojans, Spartans, Vikings, Knights, Commodores, etc. The "owners" of these names are dead and gone centuries ago. Be reasonably respectful about them, but no approval needed.

3. Specific human groups from relatively recent times, but no longer extant: Minutemen, Sooners, 49ers, etc. No approval needed, but there really should be a strong link between the college and the group.

4. Specific ethnic group that is still extant: This is the biggie. If you are going to name yourselves after one of these groups, you better have a strong link to the group or get permission from that group. Just being in the same geographic region doesn't count. A significant portion of your student body and historical university leadership should be from the ethnic group. This is why the NCAA doesn't have a problem with Notre Dame. A significant minority of the student body is of Irish descent, and several of the past presidents have been the same. This is almost never the case at non-reservation universities with NA nicknames. Students of Sioux descent make up less than 5% of the enrollment, and there have never been any Sioux in any kind of serious leadership positions. Without that, the NCAA says you must get approval from the "owners" of the name.



I don't have any moral objections against non-Native universities using Native names, but I also don't have moral objections to the NCAA policy. I think it's rather fair to have to get approval from an extant group if you're trying to co-opt their name with no right to it of your own. I do think that UND has screwed up this issue for a good 35 years and is now reaping the rewards of that arrogance. Other universities in UND's position worked with their respective tribes long before the NCAA stepped in. This created enough good will that the tribes went to bat for the universities against the NCAA. UND never did that, and now they(and the rest of us in ND) are paying the price. Really, how hard would it have been to create a committee 20 years ago or so with a couple of Sioux representatives that would have been responsible for approving all merchandise and other usage of the Sioux name and logo. It could have met three or four times a year, and it would've given the Sioux the feeling of have some control over their likeness. Throw in a small royalty(1-2% of the profits) to give them a monetary reason to support UND, and I bet they would've been the first to line up in defense of UND versus the NCAA. But the UND leadership spent the entire 20th century thinking the status quo would never change; I don't have a lot of respect for people that dense.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Your are pretty much correct, Sioux is basically French for Snake in the grass, which is why they don't like it used. I can't blame them as it does get used badly. If they wer actually named after a tribe it probably would never get changed.

Not true, but enough Natives believe it to be true that it doesn't matter anymore. Perception has replaced reality in this case. Sioux is most likely a derivative of a word meaning "speaker of a foreign language." That root word also developed into a word for a type of snake, but the two are likely not related. (the language where this confusion entered was Proto-Algonquin, not French) In any case, the snake/French story has been believed to be true for so long that it really doesn't matter anymore.

Proto-Algonquin term(speaker of foreign language) - develops into Odawa word refering to the Santee/Yankton & Yanktonai/Lakota - gets mangled by the French Canadians - gets abbreviated into the English "Sioux"

-- in other languages(not Odawa) derived from Proto Algonquin, the original term comes to refer to a small rattlesnake(massasauga)

[tjbison]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Not true, but enough Natives believe it to be true that it doesn't matter anymore. Perception has replaced reality in this case. Sioux is most likely a derivative of a word meaning "speaker of a foreign language." That root word also developed into a word for a type of snake, but the two are likely not related. (the language where this confusion entered was Proto-Algonquin, not French) In any case, the snake/French story has been believed to be true for so long that it really doesn't matter anymore.

Proto-Algonquin term(speaker of foreign language) - develops into Odawa word refering to the Santee/Yankton & Yanktonai/Lakota - gets mangled by the French Canadians - gets abbreviated into the English "Sioux"

-- in other languages(not Odawa) derived from Proto Algonquin, the original term comes to refer to a small rattlesnake(massasauga)

Well i'm not going to get into the different interpretations but I have seen some things that point toward it being read that way, thru a person I consider VERY informed, from "elders". Somewhere somehow in history Sioux was used in a way that didn't sit well with the people.

[joeboo22]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Not true, but enough Natives believe it to be true that it doesn't matter anymore. Perception has replaced reality in this case. Sioux is most likely a derivative of a word meaning "speaker of a foreign language." That root word also developed into a word for a type of snake, but the two are likely not related. (the language where this confusion entered was Proto-Algonquin, not French) In any case, the snake/French story has been believed to be true for so long that it really doesn't matter anymore.

Proto-Algonquin term(speaker of foreign language) - develops into Odawa word refering to the Santee/Yankton & Yanktonai/Lakota - gets mangled by the French Canadians - gets abbreviated into the English "Sioux"

-- in other languages(not Odawa) derived from Proto Algonquin, the original term comes to refer to a small rattlesnake(massasauga)

I don't know, its just what I learned in South Dakota history and some from Native American studies. Again though its the what they think of it, to many of the lakota, nakota and dakota culture, "Sioux" is a bad name.

[Hammersmith]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Well i'm not going to get into the different interpretations but I have seen some things that point toward it being read that way, thru a person I consider VERY informed, from "elders". Somewhere somehow in history Sioux was used in a way that didn't sit well with the people.

What's happened in this case is partially a result of the cultural and linguistic damage inflicted by whites over the course of about a century, coupled with almost no academic interest in NA linguistics until the last couple decades. Until recently, many NA languages were "black holes"; no research and an extremely limited number of fluent speakers. Some NA languages dropped to just a couple dozen speakers or died out entirely. When you add the fact that most were only spoken languages(no written version), you create a fertile environment for misunderstandings. For many, many decades, the French/snake story was believed to be true. Both sides believed it to be true. It was totally accepted as truth. Only in the last few decades have NA languages come under academic scrutiny by linguists and NA peoples trying to rediscover their heritage. This is one case where new research is suggesting that the commonly held belief is wrong. It doesn't change the fact that the word was used as an insult by people who didn't understand where it came from. And it doesn't change the fact that those being insulted knew they were being insulted. The bad feelings still exist even if a rather inconsequential detail was wrong.

In any case, Sioux was an outsider's name for their peoples(no matter the meaning), and that always is dangerous. And I could very well be totally wrong. There are still many decades of work to be done on tracing the languages and their changes over time.

[filbert]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

Well, perhaps if UND would consider a name change to the "Mandans" or the "Arikaras" or "Hidatsas" or some more specific tribal name than just "Sioux" they could finesse the issue somehow and keep their precious indian-head logo . . .

This would get around the Standing Rock tribe's refusal, as they'd only have to deal with the Three Affiliated Tribes reservation. (Maybe as a compromise to keep all three tribes happy, the hockey teams could be the Mandans, the other men's teams could be the Arikaras, and the other women's teams could be the Hidatsas. It would be weird, but also rather cool. Also educational for people who hadn't heard about the Three Affiliated Tribes (Wikipedia can be your friend!))

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: ND legislature and Sioux name

I've never understood why the Irish always get brought up in the name situation. Their name isn't offensive at all.

You mean it isn't offensive at all TO YOU. The Sioux nickname isn't offensive at all TO ME. Which one of us is right?

I'm 1/8 Irish.

As an Irish descendant, I COULD be offended by the use of the Fighting Irish. You could also be of Irish descent and take no offense. Which of us would be right? Which would the NCAA listen to?

That's sort of the whole point. The NCAA has decided to cherry pick, show favorites, or turn a blind eye to some nicknames based on arbitrary rules that are entirely subjective.