Sanford Premiere Center......

[TK22867]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

Yeah, and that's not exactly a stretch looking at those photos. Without some inside knowledge I think it's a stretch to lay this problem on an owner. In fact, I can't think how it would be the owners fault without someone doing something incredibly dumb or getting terrible advice from the architect.

So what do you know? Instead of the one line posts implying someone doesn't know the real issue just spill the beans.

I know enough, and several members on this forum do as well. I don't think it is fair that you, just like councilman Staggers, immediately throw the general contractor and their subcontractor under the bus without knowing any of the details.

If you want to know more, I suggest you call City Attorney Pfeifle and ask to see a copy of the report on the siding that was prepared by an independent party (with taxpayer dollars mind you) - the Judd Allen Group out of Minneapolis.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

I know enough, and several members on this forum do as well. I don't think it is fair that you, just like councilman Staggers, immediately throw the general contractor and their subcontractor under the bus without knowing any of the details.

If you want to know more, I suggest you call City Attorney Pfeifle and ask to see a copy of the report on the siding that was prepared by an independent party (with taxpayer dollars mind you) - the Judd Allen Group out of Minneapolis.

Lol. Keep tap dancing. Instead of your initial response why not just say something along the lines of "It's my understanding that the installer may not be responsible".

I didn't throw anyone under the bus. I offered a possible scenario that's not exactly a stretch and said they "may" be trying to assign blame to a certain party. Never once did I use a name. Saying I threw anyone under the bus is just plain idiotic.

You never did answer my question though. How can this be the fault of the owner? Unless someone was REALLY dumb with the city I'd say it's hard to find too much fault in them. They hire an architect for a reason. They aren't building experts and rely on them for quidance. If the architect gave them bad advice then it's on the architect.

[filbert]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

Lol. Keep tap dancing. Instead of your initial response why not just say something along the lines of "It's my understanding that the installer may not be responsible".

I didn't throw anyone under the bus. I offered a possible scenario that's not exactly a stretch and said they "may" be trying to assign blame to a certain party. Never once did I use a name. Saying I threw anyone under the bus is just plain idiotic.

You never did answer my question though. How can this be the fault of the owner? Unless someone was REALLY dumb with the city I'd say it's hard to find too much fault in them. They hire an architect for a reason. They aren't building experts and rely on them for quidance. If the architect gave them bad advice then it's on the architect.

I'll take a quick shot at an answer for how it may be the fault of the owner: if they were given options 1, 2, and 3 for exterior finishes for the building, and the architect said "1 will be cheapest but won't look very good" . . . for instance.

I have zero knowlege of the situation, but know enough about major building projects to know that there's plenty of room for everybody concerned to screw up . . . from the guys setting the re-bar and pouring the concrete to the guys approving the plans and signing the checks to pay for it, and pretty much every one in between.

The thing is, responsibility flows upwards, not downwards. The ironworker's work gets checked by construction inspectors. The inspectors are responsible to the project managers. The project managers are responsible to the owner. The owner is responsible to the city. (I missed a few layers, just there).

So, who "screwed up" the building exterior? I don't know. Is it an installation error? Is it a design error? Is it not really an error at all, but a case of "you get what you pay for?"

We shall find out, in due course, I imagine.

Responsibility flows uphill. Unfortunately, it's BLAME that generally flows downhill. This is one good reason why we have contracts, and laywers.

[jackdaniel]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

There's some information available, from the City web site, it's old, also threw in the NCAA presentation announcing the regional sites for 2016.The Sanford Center looks worse back then to me, maybe they've done some fixing already.

http://www.argusleader.com/search/PA...FORD%20CENTER/

http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball...site-selection

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

I'll take a quick shot at an answer for how it may be the fault of the owner: if they were given options 1, 2, and 3 for exterior finishes for the building, and the architect said "1 will be cheapest but won't look very good" . . . for instance.

I have zero knowlege of the situation, but know enough about major building projects to know that there's plenty of room for everybody concerned to screw up . . . from the guys setting the re-bar and pouring the concrete to the guys approving the plans and signing the checks to pay for it, and pretty much every one in between.

The thing is, responsibility flows upwards, not downwards. The ironworker's work gets checked by construction inspectors. The inspectors are responsible to the project managers. The project managers are responsible to the owner. The owner is responsible to the city. (I missed a few layers, just there).

So, who "screwed up" the building exterior? I don't know. Is it an installation error? Is it a design error? Is it not really an error at all, but a case of "you get what you pay for?"

We shall find out, in due course, I imagine.

Responsibility flows uphill. Unfortunately, it's BLAME that generally flows downhill. This is one good reason why we have contracts, and laywers.

If that scenario happened then someone is incredibly dumb with the city. They have an architect for a reason; to be an advocate for them and help them make the correct decisions. Any architect that is worth their salt wouldn't allow the city to put themselves in that position (selecting a product that just flat looks like crap).

You're right that there are plenty of opportunities for all involved to screw up and I just offerred one possible scenario. There are lots of players, but you have to agree the owner has quite a bit of protection because let's be honest, they aren't the experts and shouldn't be making big decisions without some sound advice.

[TK22867]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

If that scenario happened then someone is incredibly dumb with the city. They have an architect for a reason; to be an advocate for them and help them make the correct decisions. Any architect that is worth their salt wouldn't allow the city to put themselves in that position (selecting a product that just flat looks like crap).

You're right that there are plenty of opportunities for all involved to screw up and I just offerred one possible scenario. There are lots of players, but you have to agree the owner has quite a bit of protection because let's be honest, they aren't the experts and shouldn't be making big decisions without some sound advice.

I think it is really unfair that you keep calling people "dumb" and "idiotic" without knowing any exact details of the situation other than what has been stated on this board or mentioned in the media. There are Jackrabbit alum involved here.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

I think it is really unfair that you keep calling people "dumb" and "idiotic" without knowing any exact details of the situation other than what has been stated on this board or mentioned in the media. There are Jackrabbit alum involved here.

Being a Jackrabbit alum doesn't absolve them from making bad business decisions or being called out.

[bubbajack]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

The placement of the windows bothers me more a little bit more than the panels

[filbert]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

If that scenario happened then someone is incredibly dumb with the city. They have an architect for a reason; to be an advocate for them and help them make the correct decisions. Any architect that is worth their salt wouldn't allow the city to put themselves in that position (selecting a product that just flat looks like crap).

You're right that there are plenty of opportunities for all involved to screw up and I just offerred one possible scenario. There are lots of players, but you have to agree the owner has quite a bit of protection because let's be honest, they aren't the experts and shouldn't be making big decisions without some sound advice.

You've never been in a meeting where your boss wanted options, you came up with them, and the boss picked the "worst" one? "I told you so" is not considered to be a career-advancing phrase, but I suspect it's the rare subordinate who hasn't thought it a time or two.

And yes, I'm quite open to the possibility that they used the "wrong" architect. But I'm certainly not concluding that either. I have no way from here of knowing who's responsible for the exterior. (I don't like the building's exterior anyway, flawed or not but nobody asked my aesthetic opinion--there are not many arenas I find pleasing from the exterior anyway. Frost Arena is IMHO about as good as it gets aesthetically. YMMV)

[Roy]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

Many years ago, when the arena was new there were roof problems. They got fixed. The sky did not fall.

Was that 50+ years ago? Time flies.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

You've never been in a meeting where your boss wanted options, you came up with them, and the boss picked the "worst" one? "I told you so" is not considered to be a career-advancing phrase, but I suspect it's the rare subordinate who hasn't thought it a time or two.

And yes, I'm quite open to the possibility that they used the "wrong" architect. But I'm certainly not concluding that either. I have no way from here of knowing who's responsible for the exterior. (I don't like the building's exterior anyway, flawed or not but nobody asked my aesthetic opinion--there are not many arenas I find pleasing from the exterior anyway. Frost Arena is IMHO about as good as it gets aesthetically. YMMV)

Not a very good analogy Filbert. Presumably my boss would have a pretty good understanding of what is being done and has the capacity to make an informed decision; the city isn't in that same situation.

Let me use an analogy.

I'm a licensed engineer. If I have a client and I produce a design for them. The client wants to do something that varies from the design that let's say is potentially dangerous. I inform them of this and advise them not to proceed with this yet they do and I didn't stop them. A year later someone is hurt or killed. How much water is the "I told them not to" going to hold when I go to court because a grieving widow is suing? Not very much. As design professionals we are expected to be the experts. Allowing some client to do something that just isn't a good idea doesn't automatically absolve the design professional. A good lawyer is going to ask who should have known better and it's likely not someone with the city who has been through one big building project like this.

Now, I'm not saying this happened. But, could someone at the city have said that we don't care what the architect/contractor/sub says we want to use this paneling although everyone was against it? Sure. Would have be considered a dumb move? I think it would be.

Once again, I haven't once placed blame on one person. Just posted some scenarios that are possible.

[jacks1]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

Here's what I know. The inside is very nice, the seats are comfy and the beer is cold.

[goon]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

Here's what I know. The inside is very nice, the seats are comfy and the beer is cold.

Thats what I am looking forward to with the summit league tourney, better foods, cold beers and nicer seats. the 2 things i have been to so far seem to have more leg room and seats that I can sit in for 4 days.......and hopefully not ache as much as the seats from the arena.

[jacks1]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......



A look at the Premiere Center setup for the Summit Tourney.

[bigticket1]

Re: Sanford Premiere Center......

Here's what I know. The inside is very nice, the seats are comfy and the beer is cold.

Me too ! I'll lower my eyes and look down at the sidewalk until I get inside and then enjoy the heck out of the experience.