Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

[NightHawk78]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

HoboD, the D-2 option will still be available to SD athletes if USD and Augie go D-1. Northern is a solid member of the NSIC and schools such as Dakota St., Black Hills St., and USF could move up to D-2 in the forseeable future.

I think some members on this board are afraid that a D-1 jump by Augie and USD would dilute the advantages of SDSU has gained by going D-1. I think that our head start will be more beneficial in the long-run and the addition of some familiar teams in the area would increase the overall excitement about D-1 and help get some more casual basketball fans back into Frost Arena.

If the Upper Midwest can continue to have about 16 teams at the D-2 level (enough for two eight-school conferences), then USD and Augie could remain D-2 and probably be successful. If that number would drop to 12 or below, only the NSIC would likely survive. I think Augie could co-exist with the NSIC, but would have some difficulty getting some new rivalries established. IMHO, however, USD and the NSIC cannot co-exist because USD would not like the reduced schollie levels and the NSIC schools are typically regional, NOT statewide, schools.

Point to ponder: Can you think of any "statewide" schools, besides USD and UND, that are currently D-2?

[fezzador]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

My hope is Augie and USD stay D-2. For the atheletes and fans of this state that is the best scenario and I think for them as institutions. My daughter just finished a D-2 career at UND. She like most of the athletes there (exception of Hockey) would have not been competitive in D-1, instead, in D-2 they won 2 conference team championships and competed in 3 NCAA tournaments. That would not have happened in D-1. There is a large group of athletes in the Dakotas (as elsewhere) who are a step ahead of the NAIA athlete, but a step behind the D-1. While I love that the Jacks give the states elite an option, it would be great if the D-2 opportunity was here also. Just my opinion.......I could be wrong.

I'm inclined to agree. SDSU has moved up to the big-boy table, so it's imperative to think outside the box and attracting athletes from all around - Twin Cities, Wisconsin, Chicago, Denver, Omaha, etc. all bring more to the table than either of the Dakotas have to offer for D-1 talent. I wouldn't be one bit surprised that in the near future SD athletes make up a minority at SDSU (if they're not already).

I'm calling USD's bluff. Of the 4 big publics in the Dakotas, USD has the smallest athletics budget, smallest enrollment, smallest alumni base, smallest community, and worst athletic facilities. Some of these can be remedied, others can't be. Step one to going D-1 is to have the necessary funding, and step 2 is to upgrade the facilities. Location is crappy too, but that can't be fixed unfortunately.

And Augustana isn't particularly competitive in D-II as it is, going up would be suicide for them (assuming that they're financially ready).

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

Point to ponder: Can you think of any "statewide" schools, besides USD and UND, that are currently D-2?

I'm not sure this is even an appropriate comparison to consider. Each state has different higher ed systems, so that what one state does with its institutions can't necessarily be compared to another. It also depends on what you consider a "statewide" school. BHSU is considered by many to be a statewide school as it has grown to where it is the 3rd largest school and gets students from every part of South Dakota; USD's in-state population may be much more concentrated than BHSU's (I don't know). SDSMT has long been South Dakota "science & engineering" school (I put it in quotes for a reason). I don't know how many statewide schools that any other state has, because I'm not sure what a statewide school in SD is.

[89rabbit]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

I could be wrong, but I think NightHawk is talking about schools with a statewide mission (I/E Flagship schools).

Chancellor Robert M. Berdahl’s - University of California, Berkeley wrote, “What do we mean by the term "Flagship" universities? The term applies, in all the cases I can think of, to the fully mature public universities serving most of states. In most cases, these institutions were the first public universities to be established in their states. Many of what we now call the Flagship campuses were established in the extraordinary period of university building that took place in the United States in the roughly three decades from the mid-1850s to the mid-1880s. Many came into being after the Morrill Act of 1863 provided the federal grants of land to the states to establish public universities. Some states built two institutions, a land-grant college focused on agriculture and the "mechanical arts" as well as general education, and another more directed at classical education and the other professions. For example, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, Washington, and Texas, among others, built separate institutions, while Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio, and California combined the land-grant and liberal arts function on a single campus. These institutions formed the core of the public systems of higher education in their respective states. State teachers colleges, later evolving into regional state colleges or universities, formed the rest of the higher education institutions in most states.”


Go State!

[NightHawk78]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

89rabbit, you are correct. Thanks for posting the Berdahl quote.

Nothing against BHSU or Mines, but those schools were founded with a different purpose than SDSU and USD. BH was a normal school to educate teachers in western SD and Mines was set up due to its proximity to the Black Hills and its mining industry.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

I guess that was my point. The historical definition cited by 89 is one way to define a statewide school. I'm not sure that definition is an applicable to determining what a statewide school is today, espescially in the context of how collegiate athletics fit into the mix. At the time the "statewide" or "flagship" schools were founded, what was the role of collegiate athhletics? Much different than it is today. As such, I think the idea that a school that fits that definition can be used as a factor in what their athletic program should look like, does not make much sense. Each school needs to look at its own situation, where it now, where it wants to be in the future, and does it have the assets to get to where it wants to be.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

I'm not sure if this was brought up yet, but I'm not sure the population of the Dakota's warrants or can support more than 2 D1 public schools, regardless of UND's stated intentions. Sioux Falls is a fast growing city and it's easy to focus on that, but the grand total of both states combined is still less than the greater-Milwaukee area and approximately half of the Twins Cities area. Combine that with SD's citizen friendly tax laws and there isn't exactly a huge pot of money out there to fund a move by USD or even UND.

Now, I know your asking yourself, "where have I heard that argument before?" I'll give you a hint...it was made by 2 state-funded schools (and their supporters) located in SD and ND back when NDSU and SDSU were looking to make the jump to D1. Both of those schools have 3 letter acronyms that start with the letter "U". Funny how that argument has all of a sudden gone to the wayside now that those same 2 schools are interested in making the jump. Gotta love hypocracy and the ability of those employing the hypocracy to simply ignore the hypocracy all-together.

[NightHawk78]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

I think that each school that is looking to move to D-1 has to examine its own circumstances. For instance, a private college in the Twin Cities may avoid D-1 due to competition from the Gophers, pro sports, and other cultural opportunities; it may have plenty of competition at the D-2 or D-3 levels.

Augie and USD, on the other hand, are facing a different set of circumstances. Their traditional rivals have largely left for D-1. The remaining D-2 schools in the region (NSIC) have little desire to compete on the level that Augie and USD are accustomed to, especially in football. Competition for basketball attendence is tight, but D-1 basketball in SF may be more attractive than the NBA's D-League. In essence, UND, USD, and Augie are in abind. UND already made its move; Augie and USD may have no choice if it wishes to maintain the stature it enjoyed as a member of the NCC.

As for the flip-flopping that is about to occur, Abbott (as well as the Fighting Ralphs) will use the "rapid deterioration of the NCC and the diminsihing quality of D-2" as his rationale for moving to D-1 and asking for help. After all, they claim to be "THE University." The citizens of SD, after all, don't want their "flagship" to go down in flames.

[SD-STATE]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

With all these advisory boards coming into being. Are any of these schools seeking advice from a neutral source, like how SDSU sought out Carr Sports? With out an independent report on their schools position how can any of them get a true picture which path is best for them. I think that ego and jealousy will cloud future decisions made by Augie and USD.

As to the Dakotas having the population to support 5 DI schools. I think the fact that both states are in the bottom five in population rank. Speaks for itself. SD is a couple spots higher than ND though. All this according to Wilkpedia anyway.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

I believe UND had a study done by a firm similar to Carr, if not by Carr, a couple years back. Then they updated info & stats in the study in this last review. I have no idea if Augie or USD ever had an independent study. It is a very good question, though.

[JackJD]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

It is going to be really tough for them to pull the dreaded flip-flop on this issue!  I'm sure that Abbott, being the good Democrat that he is, will have no problem flippin-and-a-floppin with the best of them!  

SUPERBUNNY

SUPERBUNNY:  The political shot is unwarranted.  I assume you're making a joke but don't get me started on the current set of Republicans (their spending habits and getting government more and more involved in our private lives has traditional Republicans spinning in their graves)....anyway.  We all bleed blue and yellow here and some of us are good Republicans and some of us are good Democrats and we don't want to be arguing with each other.

Go Jacks.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

JackJD responded very appropriately and I will leave it at that.

[89rabbit]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?

*From the Moderator


Let's leave the politics off this board please.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Five D1 Schools in the Dakotas?




SUPERBUNNY:  The political shot is unwarranted.  I assume you're making a joke but don't get me started on the current set of Republicans (their spending habits and getting government more and more involved in our private lives has traditional Republicans spinning in their graves)....anyway.  We all bleed blue and yellow here and some of us are good Republicans and some of us are good Democrats and we don't want to be arguing with each other.

Go Jacks.[/quote]

I deleted the post!

It was only a joke and I appologize, my poor attempt at a little humor.  Thanks for calling me on it!!!

I'm for us all bleeding yellow and blue on here!!!  There is too much other crap out there!

Go Big Blue!

SUPERBUNNY