It is what it is...

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

Another factor that really hasn't been addressed in looking at the program, is whether or not the players are developing as expected? This was probably the factor, more than anything besides W-L record, that got Charlie Weisz fired at Notre Dame. (apples to oranges in many aspects, I know) Are the players that you thought were going to be great seniors when they were freshman, great when they are seniors. If it goes beyond individual cases to a consistent pattern, that reflects on the program.

And again, just putting out ideas on how a program should be evaluated, commenting on how the evaluation would come out here.

I could not agree more. This is always the danger in college athletics. That is why I am always reserved when it comes to predictions about years past the current one. It must be very hard to realize that the kid you recruit that you thought had so much upside was actually already peaking.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: It is what it is...

A little more perspective on this issue. Oakland, who many consider to be the class of the conference this season, had a fairly rocky transition period. Greg Kampe, their head coach, started there in 1984 and is widely considered one of the best coaches in the conference. Prior to the DI transition he had a winning percentage of 63%.

97-24 Wins --Last year of DII
98-15 Wins --1st Year of Transition
99-12 Wins --2nd Year of Transition
00-13 Wins --3rd Year of Transition
01-12 Wins --4th Year of Transition
02-17 Wins --2nd Place in MidCon
03-17 Wins --2nd Place in MidCon
04-13 Wins --7th Place in MidCon
05-13 Wins --5th Place in MidCon
06-11 Wins --7th Place in MidCon--Derrick Nelson is a RsF
07-19 Wins --2nd Place in MidCon--Keith Benson is a RsF, Jonathan Jones is a Freshman
08-17 Wins --3rd Place in Summit
09-23 Wins --3rd Place in Summit
10-??

Until Oakland got Nelson, Benson, and Jones, they were a pretty average team, other than 2 17 win seasons. Since landing those top notch recruits, they have been a league contender.

Hopefully Fiegen, White, Dykstra, and Heemstra can be our Nelson, Benson, and Jones.

[SidelineObserver]

Re: It is what it is...

Assuming nobody jumps ship, our roster would look like:

Seniors:
Moss
Palarca
Cordova
Sargent
Tivis

Juniors:
Cassaday
Griff Callahan
Selken
Pederson

Sophomores:
Wolters
Fiegen
Rader

Redshirt Freshmen:
Carlson
Most likely White

Freshmen:
Heemstra
Dykstra

Adjusted it for you, as to the current situation.

[zooropa]

Re: It is what it is...

The upperclassmen are used to losing. Or rather, they are used to winning in spectacular fashion (blow out Wyoming and IUPUI, come from behind wins vs. Oakland, ORU, WIU).

They are not used to winning as a matter of routine. Winning for them is a matter of spectacular effort in the face of nearly insuperable odds--regardless of the facts of the case, that's their attitude toward winning.

-----

Nagy has to be a good recruiter, a good motivator, and a good strategist.

For much of the transition he was none of these things.

However, he should not be fired now for the mistakes of the past.

-----

- In terms of strategy, he's moved to a more realistic assessment of the kind of talent he can land to compete at this level. White/Fiegen/Heemstra/Dykstra type players are readily available in the upper midwest and can form the backbone of a perennial tournament contender, provided they are playing in the right offensive system.

- In terms of recruiting, he's improved dramatically. This year's class and next year's are far and away better than any class he's brought in previously. We aren't seeing kids flame out, drop out or get kicked out anymore.

- In terms of motivation, there is a HUGE question mark, that I don't think can be answered yet.

I think that some players may not be actively tuning Nagy out, as in being set against what he's saying. Rather, I think it may not be 'connecting' with them. Nagy tells the team they can beat Wyoming. The team believes it. They see the connection between the strategy he's laid out and their respective abilities, they go out and they beat Wyoming, handily.

But at some point in time, for some of these players, they lose that connection. Nagy tells them, "if we do this, this, and this, we will beat X," and they believe, for a while. Then, whether it's the blown 20 point lead vs ECU, or something else, they stop buying what he's selling.

What does Nagy do at that point? How do you convince a bunch of kids who lost two out of three games last year that, basically, it's all in their heads? That they're beating themselves at this point?

If, by the end of this season, he's lost Fiegen & Wolters, and Palarca & Sargent have regressed, I think he'll resign before anyone decides to fire him.

One can get too down on the team after the Cal Poly loss, it's still early in the season, and some of these kids--Sargent especially (at least if you judge by his post game comments) know what they need to do and are doing their best to overcome the inertia of these 20 loss seasons.

Larry Bird said he'd only coach three years because 'after three years they stop listening to you.' With all due respect to Williams, Garrett, and AC; they're not the future of this program. You can't measure Nagy's success or the decision to keep him or drop him based on the play of those three good or bad. The decision has to be made on the basis of Sargent, Palarca and the underclassmen.

[NoVaJack]

Re: It is what it is...

Two points.
1. These are the times that separate fans from bandwagon passengers. This team has enough talent to turn it around.

2. I have a theory on passion and basketball. See it a lot in high school games in Northern Virginia. Young folks now play so much, year around, from AAU to elites on up, that the scholastic and college games themselves aren't that unique any more. Games get to be more mundane events, like 162-game baseball seasons. Football, with 10 or so high school games and far more restricted offseason GAME opportunities, inherently has more uniquness built into the games themselves. Most high school basketball teams in this area play at least as many games in summer leagues as they do in the actual regular winter schedule. Some kids seeking college scholarships play in multiple summer leagues, in games five or six nights a week.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

Two points.
1. These are the times that separate fans from bandwagon passengers. This team has enough talent to turn it around.

2. I have a theory on passion and basketball. See it a lot in high school games in Northern Virginia. Young folks now play so much, year around, from AAU to elites on up, that the scholastic and college games themselves aren't that unique any more. Games get to be more mundane events, like 162-game baseball seasons. Football, with 10 or so high school games and far more restricted offseason GAME opportunities, inherently has more uniquness built into the games themselves. Most high school basketball teams in this area play at least as many games in summer leagues as they do in the actual regular winter schedule. Some kids seeking college scholarships play in multiple summer leagues, in games five or six nights a week.

I agree with both points. I think that this team does have the talent, but I also believe that they may not believe in themselves. The carryover from the Wyoming game lasted until the last half of the Purdue game. Then some doubt may have started to creep back into the older guys and they just didnt' have any confidence. One or two big wins could make this team do a complete 180.

I think to a certain extent that the Men's team is unfairly judged based upon the success of the other sports in DI. Many will look at Football, WBB, Soccer, and VB (early on) and try to project that this team should be further along. That being said, their sometimes unfocused play makes this argument moot at times.

[Jacks-02]

Re: It is what it is...

I don't know if anyone has brought up the point that the team was on a horrendous road trip (Indiana to Illinois to Nevada) only to get back to school just in time for finals week, of which this game was held right in the middle of.

I don't know of too many 18-21 year olds who can handle all of that and still bring a ton of energy to the floor for a basketball game.

In other words, lighten up folks.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: It is what it is...

I think that everyone knew that the transition years would be tough. That isn't groundbreaking news.

The transition has nothing to do with this teams failures. Are you telling me that the Jacks were less talented than Denver? Or CalPoly? Or even ECU?

You said it when you said that the team's problem is mental. The upperclassmen are used to losing. Heck, the only road conference game that we have won is because of the underclass.

I think that the difficulty of transition is there, but I also think that it is an easy cruth to fall back on. This team should be performing better.

The upper classmen are not leading the team like they should. Whether that is a problem with Nagy or not I do not know. It is not good when a freshman on a senior laden team leads them to the ONLY conference road win to this point.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: It is what it is...

I don't know if anyone has brought up the point that the team was on a horrendous road trip (Indiana to Illinois to Nevada) only to get back to school just in time for finals week, of which this game was held right in the middle of.

I don't know of too many 18-21 year olds who can handle all of that and still bring a ton of energy to the floor for a basketball game.

In other words, lighten up folks.

I hope that is the reason.

I fear it is not.

[KUlawJack]

Re: It is what it is...

I don't know if anyone has brought up the point that the team was on a horrendous road trip (Indiana to Illinois to Nevada) only to get back to school just in time for finals week, of which this game was held right in the middle of.

I don't know of too many 18-21 year olds who can handle all of that and still bring a ton of energy to the floor for a basketball game.

In other words, lighten up folks.

Its a good point about the travel and the scheduling of the game. However, Cal Poly made the long flight to South Dakota, with what many people here deemed an inferior team, and won. Long road trip around finals time for them as well.

Adversity - either overcome it, or succumb to it. Lots of 18-23 year olds deal with a lot tougher stuff than having the opportunity to play basketball for SDSU and concentrate on finals for five days out of the semester (or a few more, if they are studying prior). Don't forget, this is an opportunity to represent a Division I university, not a chore.

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: It is what it is...

Nice post Zoo. I've refrained from posting on this thread (and this will be my only one) because I just don't understand the need for opening or continuing a thread that debates whether the coach should be fired or retained when the season has started...and hasn't ended. No decision is going to be made on the men's basketball coaching until this season has ended. Until the very latter stages of the season, I'm just going to tune out this and similar threads...because I don't think there is a single poster on here who really knows how this season is going to pan out.

As for the team, I get just as down as a number of you, because I want this team to win (who doesn't?) very much. But let's be realistic here: There were four games on our schedule so far that I don't believe a single poster could have justified picking the Jacks to win: All on the road, they were (team, Sagarin rating) Boston College #91; Purdue #4; Nevada #77, and IUPUI #109 (and picked 2nd in the Summit). There were two games some posters thought weren't tough teams, that we lost to: Denver #123, and East Carolina #184. SDSU's#243 rating belies that belief. That leaves one game that was certainly winnable, and we lost, in Cal Poly #228. That's an accurate look at our seven losses.

We beat Wyoming handily on the road, and we played one of the top teams in the country tough in our game against Purdue. And we ended our conference losing streak on the road in beating Western Illinois, and won the other games we were supposed to win. Am I giving up on this team already...hell no!! Having said that, I do know that continual losses leave players not believe in their coaches, or in themselves and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...a culture.

In closing, SF Rabbit Fans graph is a lot more than just a "nice graph". It is a visual look at how we moved through the first three years of transition in a continual down trend, and have increase our rise each of the past two years. In the market we were on a bearish trend the first three years, and are now in a bullish trend. I will continue to be bullish on this team, because I believe they will better last year's record, which would continue an improving situation. Adios to this thread and the in-season debate over the future of the coaching staff.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: It is what it is...

Its a good point about the travel and the scheduling of the game. However, Cal Poly made the long flight to South Dakota, with what many people here deemed an inferior team, and won. Long road trip around finals time for them as well.

Adversity - either overcome it, or succumb to it. Lots of 18-23 year olds deal with a lot tougher stuff than having the opportunity to play basketball for SDSU and concentrate on finals for five days out of the semester (or a few more, if they are studying prior). Don't forget, this is an opportunity to represent a Division I university, not a chore.

I totally agree with your second paragraph.

However, Cal Poly arrived in Brookings on Sunday and basically had a 1 day team building retreat on Monday. Their coach alluded to this as a big part of how they were able to win on Tuesday night.

That's a little different than the travel we've been doing.

[KUlawJack]

Re: It is what it is...

I totally agree with your second paragraph.

However, Cal Poly arrived in Brookings on Sunday and basically had a 1 day team building retreat on Monday. Their coach alluded to this as a big part of how they were able to win on Tuesday night.

That's a little different than the travel we've been doing.

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out.

[bub94]

Re: It is what it is...

I don't know if anyone has brought up the point that the team was on a horrendous road trip (Indiana to Illinois to Nevada) only to get back to school just in time for finals week, of which this game was held right in the middle of.

I don't know of too many 18-21 year olds who can handle all of that and still bring a ton of energy to the floor for a basketball game.

In other words, lighten up folks.

Good call.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

I totally agree with your second paragraph.

However, Cal Poly arrived in Brookings on Sunday and basically had a 1 day team building retreat on Monday. Their coach alluded to this as a big part of how they were able to win on Tuesday night.

That's a little different than the travel we've been doing.

Maybe before the Gophers game we should bring in Matt Foley to talk to the guys.