It is what it is...

[TeaJackrabbit]

I remember this per-season the ORU people (and others) making the comment that maybe it's not good to have so many people back from a team that was 0-18 in conference road play, let alone a team that lost 20 in a row. I am starting to think they are right.

I think our lack of height (something people on here told me was no big deal) and lack of interior defense is just killing us. It's mind boggling how many points teams seem to score on us in the paint.

The lack of passion and hustle is well documented. It's no offense to any player, but maybe that's just who we are. I have played on teams before where there was no fire. That team, possibly like this SDSU team, was just made up of a bunch of mellow guys. Nothing you could really do.

Maybe this current squad simply isn't as good as we think they are or should be. Maybe adding just a couple of freshman (though they have played well) just isn't enough to turn us from 20 game losers to 20 game winners.

I am excited for next year where I see a new group of players (Wolters, White, Fiegen, Carlson, Dykstra, Heemstra) getting alot of minutes. I think after next year coach Nagy should get a serious evaluation. I think he deserves until then.

[CatchEmAll]

Re: It is what it is...

I think after next year coach Nagy should get a serious evaluation. I think he deserves until then.

This isn't directed at you Tea, so please don't take it that way because I know plenty of others share the same thoughts.

How many "after next years" does coach Nagy get? It's a recurring theme every season on this board, and I'm sure among those that interact face to face as well. Every pre-season starts the same way...we're excited for the incoming class...this year will be different...this is our year...I see a 17+ win season...the list goes on. And then every year about this time people start grumbling about how poorly the team is playing, yet always want to give Nagy one more year to figure it out.

I respect Nagy as much as anyone, but there comes a point in time when things just aren't working. And I know people believe that if you change coaches at this point you're just setting the program back another four or five years. Well what's the program going to look like in four or five years under Nagy? The early returns are it's going to look just like it does today, and someone will think he deserves another year.

Am I calling for Nagy's head? Nope. Do I think our new AD needs to take a long hard look at the MBB program and evaluate whether he thinks Nagy is the right man for the job and the man that Sell wants in. Absolutely. Until the end of the season Nagy needs to figure out how to get the most out of what he has and prove that this job is his to keep. He recruited them, no get them to play up to the potential that so many believe they have.

The days we all long for are long, long gone. This program needs to figure out a way to get the fans excited again before its way, way too late.

And if you want to question my stance, feel free. Four years ago I wanted Stig replaced (OK, I didn't want him hired in the first place), but I swallowed my pride and stayed quiet on the matter and am now a supporter of how he's running my program. I'll admit I was wrong on that one. In those four years Stig has made the FB program a contender. In those same four years what has the MBB team done?

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: It is what it is...

This isn't directed at you Tea, so please don't take it that way because I know plenty of others share the same thoughts.

How many "after next years" does coach Nagy get? It's a recurring theme every season on this board, and I'm sure among those that interact face to face as well. Every pre-season starts the same way...we're excited for the incoming class...this year will be different...this is our year...I see a 17+ win season...the list goes on. And then every year about this time people start grumbling about how poorly the team is playing, yet always want to give Nagy one more year to figure it out.

I respect Nagy as much as anyone, but there comes a point in time when things just aren't working. And I know people believe that if you change coaches at this point you're just setting the program back another four or five years. Well what's the program going to look like in four or five years under Nagy? The early returns are it's going to look just like it does today, and someone will think he deserves another year.

Am I calling for Nagy's head? Nope. Do I think our new AD needs to take a long hard look at the MBB program and evaluate whether he thinks Nagy is the right man for the job and the man that Sell wants in. Absolutely. Until the end of the season Nagy needs to figure out how to get the most out of what he has and prove that this job is his to keep. He recruited them, no get them to play up to the potential that so many believe they have.

The days we all long for are long, long gone. This program needs to figure out a way to get the fans excited again before its way, way too late.

And if you want to question my stance, feel free. Four years ago I wanted Stig replaced (OK, I didn't want him hired in the first place), but I swallowed my pride and stayed quiet on the matter and am now a supporter of how he's running my program. I'll admit I was wrong on that one. In those four years Stig has made the FB program a contender. In those same four years what has the MBB team done?

In regards to the how many next years, I would say Coach Nagy should be able to coach the Rock Valley kids for at least 1 year (I would prefer 2). Assuming nobody jumps ship, our roster would look like:

Seniors:
Moss
Palarca
Cordova
Sargent
Tivis

Juniors:
Cassaday
Griff Callahan
Selken
Pederson

Sophomores:
Wolters
Carlson
Fiegen
White
Rader

Freshman:
Heemstra
Dykstra

If we can't win with this roster, the admin will seriously consider change, IMO. Unless we totally lay an egg in conference and don't make the tourney next spring. Then I don't know if they'll have a choice.

I do think things seem to be on the upswing in general, we just need to get to 15 wins to continue the upward trend. I have prepared a graph.

[CatchEmAll]

Re: It is what it is...

In regards to the how many next years, I would say Coach Nagy should be able to coach the Rock Valley kids for at least 1 year (I would prefer 2). Assuming nobody jumps ship, our roster would look like:

Devil's advocate time...what about the guys he signs in the next class. Shouldn't he get a chance to coach them for a year or two, they could be better (on paper) than the Rock Valley kids? I understand your point, just making a counter point without trying to say you're right or wrong.

Nice graph by the way. That's some dedication to the point.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

Devil's advocate time...what about the guys he signs in the next class. Shouldn't he get a chance to coach them for a year or two, they could be better (on paper) than the Rock Valley kids? I understand your point, just making a counter point without trying to say you're right or wrong.

Nice graph by the way. That's some dedication to the point.

I thought that many said that coaching this year's seniors was Nagy's last chance?

I love coach Nagy. He is probably the most passionate and dedicated guy in the athletic department. I just feel that this team isn't listening to him anymore. Perhaps he didn't baby certain players and ended up bruising their egos.

I was excited for this year, but the games that I have attended this year have been some of the most boring men's basketball games I have seen in awhile. I want to see a team that is proactive on both ends. Seems that they are happy for the jumpshot on the offensive end and have a ho-hum attitude on defense.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: It is what it is...

I have said many times that the argument that Coach Nagy, or any coach, should be retained because of next year's recruits is a false one. I am not going to list all those again, but to put a little perspective on it for mens basketball, this argument has been made going back at least until Kai was set to come in (I didn't go back any farther in the old threads) and he is a senior.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

I have said many times that the argument that Coach Nagy, or any coach, should be retained because of next year's recruits is a false one. I am not going to list all those again, but to put a little perspective on it for mens basketball, this argument has been made going back at least until Kai was set to come in (I didn't go back any farther in the old threads) and he is a senior.

I think that part of the problem is that with the history that the program has had, what caliber of coach would come in if Nagy was let go? IMO, I just don't see someone more talented that Scott being excited to come to a program that has players that seem to not "get it."

And without a proven product on the court it is a hard sell. Sure the Iowa kids are good recruits, but for all we know they could come up to SDSU and have a game that doesn't translate into DI ball.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: It is what it is...

I think that part of the problem is that with the history that the program has had, what caliber of coach would come in if Nagy was let go? IMO, I just don't see someone more talented that Scott being excited to come to a program that has players that seem to not "get it."

And without a proven product on the court it is a hard sell. Sure the Iowa kids are good recruits, but for all we know they could come up to SDSU and have a game that doesn't translate into DI ball.

Really? No coach would want to come to a school that has a history of being a basketball school, is in an auto-bid conference with the conference tournament basically in their backyard, a home court facility that is pretty darn nice, an administration that has shown a commitment to keeping coaches beyond the first sign of troubles, a school that has had a history of receiving lots of applications for other positions it has available, an administration that has shown it is committed to being successful ...

I could go on, but I think that argument doesn't hold much water. Oh and I want to make sure everyone is clear on where I stand on Coach Nagy - I am not calling for him to be fired. I am speaking only to the arguments that have been advanced.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

Really? No coach would want to come to a school that has a history of being a basketball school, is in an auto-bid conference with the conference tournament basically in their backyard, a home court facility that is pretty darn nice, an administration that has shown a commitment to keeping coaches beyond the first sign of troubles, a school that has had a history of receiving lots of applications for other positions it has available, an administration that has shown it is committed to being successful ...

I could go on, but I think that argument doesn't hold much water. Oh and I want to make sure everyone is clear on where I stand on Coach Nagy - I am not calling for him to be fired. I am speaking only to the arguments that have been advanced.

Oh, I am sure that coaches would love to come to SDSU. What I am saying is that getting a coach that is demonstratively better than Nagy could be argued. I think that many fans don't see how good of a coach we already have.

That being said, he seems to be adding fuel to the "fire Nagy" supporters when in his post game conferences he says that the team just isn't hearing him.

I would say that the big win over Wyoming may have been a bad thing as it gave many Jackrabbit fans a false sense of how good this team really was going to be.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: It is what it is...

Devil's advocate time...what about the guys he signs in the next class. Shouldn't he get a chance to coach them for a year or two, they could be better (on paper) than the Rock Valley kids? I understand your point, just making a counter point without trying to say you're right or wrong.

Nice graph by the way. That's some dedication to the point.

Good devil's advocate point. My only argument would be that the team should for sure be talented enough to win 16-18 games next year. I don't think you could say that about any team we've had up to this point in DI (except this season).

I don't know if we've had a single player in the last 5 years who would have started for NDSU, ORU, or Oakland. And before people point to NDSU's success, they were extremely fortunate to have 3 of their greatest players of all time lead them through the transition. Take one of their big 3 away, and I believe they would be an average Summit League team.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

Good devil's advocate point. My only argument would be that the team should for sure be talented enough to win 16-18 games next year. I don't think you could say that about any team we've had up to this point in DI (except this season).

I don't know if we've had a single player in the last 5 years who would have started for NDSU, ORU, or Oakland. And before people point to NDSU's success, they were extremely fortunate to have 3 of their greatest players of all time lead them through the transition. Take one of their big 3 away, and I believe they would be an average Summit League team.

Didn't people say that the team would be talented enough this year to win that 15-18 game range? We are putting a lot of faith in young team next year. Hopefully the Iowa kids turn out to be everything that we hoped for, but they are still going to be freshman.

Perhaps if the team can have a little success in the conference season we can usher out this class of seniors and with them the bad years that accompanied them.

There is nothing more that I want to see than the Men's team back to their winning ways to accompany the Women's team successes. I miss all the crazy doubleheaders that occured back in my college days.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: It is what it is...

Didn't people say that the team would be talented enough this year to win that 15-18 game range? We are putting a lot of faith in young team next year. Hopefully the Iowa kids turn out to be everything that we hoped for, but they are still going to be freshman.

Perhaps if the team can have a little success in the conference season we can usher out this class of seniors and with them the bad years that accompanied them.

There is nothing more that I want to see than the Men's team back to their winning ways to accompany the Women's team successes. I miss all the crazy doubleheaders that occured back in my college days.

I do think this team is talented enough to win 15-18 games in a college season. But I don't know if they are mentally there.

My point is, I don't know how you get rid of a coach after 1 season with a team talented enough to win. The talent gap up to this point is due to a transition period that makes it almost impossible to recruit and win. For proof, see http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?t=9250

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: It is what it is...

My point is, I don't know how you get rid of a coach after 1 season with a team talented enough to win. The talent gap up to this point is due to a transition period that makes it almost impossible to recruit and win.[/url]

This is an argument for why you wouldn't fire Nagy: that towards the end of transition and last year, the program is moving in the right direction and it will make progress in future years.

Not saying that the answer to the question is yes, but that is how I think the evaluation should be done.

[SoDakJack]

Re: It is what it is...

I do think this team is talented enough to win 15-18 games in a college season. But I don't know if they are mentally there.

My point is, I don't know how you get rid of a coach after 1 season with a team talented enough to win. The talent gap up to this point is due to a transition period that makes it almost impossible to recruit and win. For proof, see http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?t=9250

I think that everyone knew that the transition years would be tough. That isn't groundbreaking news.

The transition has nothing to do with this teams failures. Are you telling me that the Jacks were less talented than Denver? Or CalPoly? Or even ECU?

You said it when you said that the team's problem is mental. The upperclassmen are used to losing. Heck, the only road conference game that we have won is because of the underclass.

I think that the difficulty of transition is there, but I also think that it is an easy cruth to fall back on. This team should be performing better.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: It is what it is...

Another factor that really hasn't been addressed in looking at the program, is whether or not the players are developing as expected? This was probably the factor, more than anything besides W-L record, that got Charlie Weisz fired at Notre Dame. (apples to oranges in many aspects, I know) Are the players that you thought were going to be great seniors when they were freshman, great when they are seniors. If it goes beyond individual cases to a consistent pattern, that reflects on the program.

And again, just putting out ideas on how a program should be evaluated, not commenting on how the evaluation would come out here.