Holdren transferring to Illinois

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

Great post 89Rabbit. I feel the same way! Just another punch in the stomach. :-[ Usually bad things happen in groups of three. By my math, we are more than due for a few breaks. Maybe the news on the Mid-Con is the first one and we can start to turn things around.

I will say this, I am 100% in Coach Nagy's corner and will keep encouraging him and the rest of the Coaching Staff. Now is when they could use a word of encouragement. Remember, if we had stayed at DII not many changes would have happened to the Men's Basketball team. You take the injuries, illnesses, and transfers out of the equation there have only been a couple of losses. Dang, this one hurts though!

Also, it looks like the jump in divisions is hardest in D-1 compared to the other sports. Jacks fans, keep the faith. It only takes a couple of studs to really turn a team around!

I wish Steve was staying but I wish him the best of luck!

More than anything I wish Coach Nagy luck in filling holes! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

SUPERBUNNY (down but not) OUT

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

I don’t know if this qualifies as spin, but this is how I look at the current situation and why I am frustrated.  I look at the problems from a business case study standpoint:

SDSU Athletic Department = Corporation
SDSU Men’s Basketball = Division within the larger corporation
Players = Vendors who provide the actual product which the Men’s basketball division
sells to customers
Fans = Customers who buy the product from the Men’s Basketball Division
Company shareholders = alumni and friends
New Market = Division I

The SDSU Athletic Department decides it is going to venture into a new market and determines that the current Division Manager is the right man to lead the charge into that market.  He has a loyal staff in place, and has been extremely successful  leading the division in past ventures.

The corporation has done its best to provide an atmosphere for success, providing factory upgrades, more marketing dollars, and additional stock offerings to raise funds.  Other divisions have met or exceeded expectations during their transitions into less competitive markets.

Throughout the last two years, the Men’s Basketball Division has struggled in the new market.  This was expected by corporate headquarters because of the transition into new markets.  The transition was expected to last 3-5 years, at which point the Men’s Basketball Division was expected to at least be competitive.  However, the struggles have caused some shareholders to become concerned.

In addition, almost half of the vendors who provide products to the Men’s Basketball Division have either canceled contracts, gone out of business, signed exclusive contracts with the competition, or quit doing business with Men’s Basketball.  Some have been accused of fraud, and corporate headquarters has decided not to do business with them at the present time.  Two of the best vendors have left for different reasons within the last month.

While no vendor has specifically cited problems with the way the division is being run, some shareholders are beginning to ask questions.  The loss of vendors has led to the displeasure of some of the Men’s Basketball Division’s customers.  They percieve product quality as being less than satisfactory.

Question 1- If you were CEO, would you be concerned?  Is the division still on pace to be competitive within the original 5 year timeframe?  

Question 2- While the loss of vendors isn’t directly related to the Division Manager, at what point is he accountable for the overall success of the division?

Question 3- If you were a current vendor for the division, would you want to continue to do business with the Men’s Basketball Division, given the instability the last 2 years?

Question 4- If you were a potential vendor, would the concern over business stability be overcome by the possible gains of working with the Men’s Basketball Division.

Question 5- If you were a shareholder, would you be concerned with the status of one division within the company?

Question 6- If you were the Division Manager, would you want to explain the problems, business plan, and direction your division is going?

Question 7- As a customer, is the current level of product quality satisfactory?

In my opinion, how you answer these questions also defines your frustration level with the program.  Where some see problems, others see opportunity.  If you are a glass is half full type, the glass will always be half full.  If you are a half empty kinda guy, it takes a lot to fill that glass.

Holey Moley, that was long.

[JackTwice]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

The corporation has done its best to provide an atmosphere for success, providing factory upgrades, more marketing dollars, and additional stock offerings to raise funds.

Do you know this for sure? I know I don't agree with this statement much at all. I think if anything the corporation has failed to provide the atmosphere (i.e. conference affiliation, asst. coaches) Also the additional funds raised (scholarships) have been in an attempt to affect the other sports. I don't know what the difference is in men's and women's basketball scholarships from D-II to D-I but surely it is not as significant as football, women's soccer and equestrian.

Also you don't account for firing of vendors for certain failures expected from their agreement. There isn't an unlimited supply of vendors out there that are good enough to live up to their expectations so when one gets fired or decides to move on to a different business the division can not be totally held responsible.

All in all I say settle down. The ship is rocking right now and its ok to question the captain, but don't forget about the admiral also. I think it is important to see how we push through this in the next two years before we determine the fate of our Division leader.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

I don't know why these guys are leaving the program. I just know it's terribly frustrating and discouraging for basketball fans, school supporters and probably the remaining players. The loss of Holdren is especially painful. We owe Nagy thanks for getting Holdren to SDSU in the first place. Now the coach has got to figure out a way to retain good players.
Every time I think the program has bottomed out, something else negative comes along and drags down prospects further. My optimism is worn out (partly because of the never ending dorm investigation), and it's going to take more than one player signing to revive it. It could be another long couple of years.
PS: Someone asked about scholarships. I believe D-1 men's teams are entitled to 13 full rides, compared to 10 in D-II. (D-1 women's teams are entitled to 15 scholarships. I'm guessing that women get two extra in basketball to help even out the overall gender balance in sports scholarships.)

[JackJD]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

Geez, lighten up a little SF Jack Fan.  Don't you think its a bit of a stretch to try to compare a business to college athletics?

How about this possibility:  Maybe we're witnessing something akin to a great play...and I'm betting the hero, Nagy, wins in the end (you know, saves the heroine and retires for the night, ready to fight again the next day) and we're all going be marveling at how he did it.

I think ESPN should be following SDSU because this story has the potential to be a real blockbuster when this program emerges from what appears to be pretty dire circumstances.

There are some athletes who may find the adversity has some attraction...it means playing time with a great coach in a great venue against great competition.

Most D-1 programs have players moving in and out for lots of reasons...and it goes in streaks.  The top tier programs somehow figure out how to have fabulous players willing to sit on benches but even those programs will lose players whether due to transfers for more playing time or NBA defection.


I'm keeping my cowbell polished and ready.    

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

The corporation has done its best to provide an atmosphere for success, providing factory upgrades, more marketing dollars, and additional stock offerings to raise funds.

Do you know this for sure?  I know I don't agree with this statement much at all.  I think if anything the corporation has failed to provide the atmosphere (i.e. conference affiliation, asst. coaches)  Also the additional funds raised (scholarships) have been in an attempt to affect the other sports.  I don't know what the difference is in men's and women's basketball scholarships from D-II to D-I but surely it is not as significant as football, women's soccer and equestrian.

Also you don't account for firing of vendors for certain failures expected from their agreement.  There isn't an unlimited supply of vendors out there that are good enough to live up to their expectations so when one gets fired or decides to move on to a different business the division can not be totally held responsible.

All in all I say settle down.  The ship is rocking right now and its ok to question the captain, but don't forget about the admiral also.  I think it is important to see how we push through this in the next two years before we determine the fate of our Division leader.  

You're right, more can be done to support the program. I just don't know where that money is going to come from?

And, you're right, some people/vendore leaving cannot be placed squarely on the shoulders of the Division Manager/Coach. But the overall performance of the division/program is his responsibility.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

Geez, lighten up a little SF Jack Fan.  Don't you think its a bit of a stretch to try to compare a business to college athletics?    

I assume you are talking to me, SF Rabbit Fan. SF Jack probably doesn't like being confused with me. ;D

I don't think it is a stretch to compare college athletics to a business. How you feel is your opinion, fair enough.

Take a look at the athletic budgets for Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri, Florida, Cincinnatti, UCLA, and others. Tell me it’s a stretch to compare their athletic departments to a business. Are we striving for excellence, or simply DI status?

Heck, look at the athletic budget for SDSU. There is a lot of money floating around HPER since going DI, and if the athletic department isn’t being run like a business, something is just plain wrong.

I do appreciate your optimism, and I hope you are right that we will rise from the ashes to be successful. I am of the opinion that you don't solve problems by ignoring them, and player retention is clearly a problem--I know there are several publicized reasons for players leaving, no need to list them again 89.

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

[quote author=JackJD link=1146515117/15#19 date=1146632072]Geez, lighten up a little SF Jack Fan.  Don't you think its a bit of a stretch to try to compare a business to college athletics?    

I do appreciate your optimism, and I hope you are right that we will rise from the ashes to be successful. I am of the opinion that you don't solve problems by ignoring them, and player retention is clearly a problem--I know there are several publicized reasons for players leaving, no need to list them again 89.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more with this statement.

[Jacks99]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

[quote author=JackJD link=1146515117/15#19 date=1146632072]Geez, lighten up a little SF Jack Fan.  Don't you think its a bit of a stretch to try to compare a business to college athletics?    

I assume you are talking to me, SF Rabbit Fan.  SF Jack probably doesn't like being confused with me. ;D

I don't think it is a stretch to compare college athletics to a business.  How you feel is your opinion, fair enough.  

Take a look at the athletic budgets for Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri, Florida, Cincinnatti, UCLA, and others.  Tell me it’s a stretch to compare their athletic departments to a business.  Are we striving for excellence, or simply DI status?

Heck, look at the athletic budget for SDSU.  There is a lot of money floating around HPER since going DI, and if the athletic department isn’t being run like a business, something is just plain wrong.

I do appreciate your optimism, and I hope you are right that we will rise from the ashes to be successful.  I am of the opinion that you don't solve problems by ignoring them, and player retention is clearly a problem--I know there are several publicized reasons for players leaving, no need to list them again 89.
[/quote]

I don't think it's a stretch to compare it to a buisness model. Most things can be.

I also agree that the "program" should be addressing the retention issue. I'm also optimistic that we are a few players and wins from getting out of the slump and an easier schedule and association conference will help tremendously.

[89rabbit]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

I am still waiting for someone, anyone that has the opinion (as you seem to SF_Rabbit_Fan) that there was more that could have/should have been done to retain the players in question to step forward with their solutions.  It really isn't that hard, look at each players situation and tell us what you think should have been done.  It doesn't require a complicated analogy that falls apart the minute you realize that real businesses in the real world don't do business with suppliers that are run by 18 to 23 year old kids.

Again it is ok if you are frustrated with the situation.  Heck I am frustrated, but if you are going to call the coaches (and me) out .  .  . if you want to have a serious discussion (as some have claimed)  .  .  .  and want to ask hard questions of those of us who support the Coaches and Administration then you need to answer the tough questions when they are asked of you also.  


What more should have or could have been done to retain the players in question?


Go State!  

[JackTwice]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

My opinion is that the cupboard is not so bare and here is why:

Potential lineup for next year -

PG - Cadwell, Hornby, Callahan, Casey

SG - Cadwell, Hornby, Kleinjan

SF - Gilbert, Kleinjan, Yackley

PF - Engen, Billitz

C - Berte, Loney

Now this is assuming that Andre and Mo decide to stay which we know might not be totally likely (but as this thing goes on longer I like our chances better and better). Also there is Cordova, Bassett and Hoogeveen coming in and likely redshirting but then again maybe not considering the situation.

Things would certainly look much brighter with Holdren and Beren in there but they are gone. Things will look a bit darker if we lose one or both of Mo and Andre but still not bad.

I think I will continue to ride the train and drink the Kool-aid for a couple more years before I get too worried.

[TK22867]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

I've sat quiet long enough on this issue and want to make a point of my own on Mr. Holdren transferring.

Instead of staying at SDSU and becoming a SUPERSTAR and the BMOC, Steve decided to transfer closer to home to University of Illinois, where he may possibly ride the bench for his entire career.

That fact alone is alarming to me.

Personally, I think something stinks within our program, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

However, I do think that 89 has made some good points when describing how and why each member of the team has left.

Instead of taking baby steps forward, our men's program is taking giant leaps for mankind BACKWARDS.

[jackmd]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

There are sure a lot of questions. There are some good answers. There is a lot of bitching but none of those individuals bitching seems to have any solutions. Hence I call it what it is. Maybe whining is a better description.

It would be nice if Nagy would make a statement regarding his opinions about these players leaving. However, he is not obligated to. I assure you he knows that he is on the hot seat as do his assistants. Ultimately it falls on Nagy and I trust he is doing what he can to address any and all concerns.

I, for one, would like to hear some plausible solutions from those who obviously feel Nagy is the problem. How would you like to fix it?

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

I, for one, don't know if Nagy is the problem. I tend to think he could bear some of the responsibilty for players leaving. But I don't think he should be canned. I do think we have a problem retaining players. In fact, I think we have a BIG problem retaining players for whatever the stated reasons for leaving. Sorry if I've come off as "bitching", that's not my intent. But if you can honestly and objectively say that everything is just fine with the MBB team and nothing needs to be changed I think the blue and yellow glasses are clouding your view.

As far as offering answers, I don't have many. If I did, I'd be sitting in the athletic department right now.

[89rabbit]

Re: Holdren transferring to Illinois

I've sat quiet long enough on this issue and want to make a point of my own on Mr. Holdren transferring.

Instead of staying at SDSU and becoming a SUPERSTAR and the BMOC, Steve decided to transfer closer to home to University of Illinois, where he may possibly ride the bench for his entire career.

That fact alone is alarming to me.

Personally, I think something stinks within our program, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

However, I do think that 89 has made some good points when describing how and why each member of the team has left.

Instead of taking baby steps forward, our men's program is taking giant leaps for mankind BACKWARDS.

TK,  

I love your passion for SDSU and I totally dig the Blue and Yellow glasses you are looking through (many is the time that people have commented on mine), so let me try this out on you.  

A kid lives in Durham, home of Duke University, and is a Blue Devils fan from birth (as is his family and friends and just about everybody he knows).  This kid grows up and is a pretty good b-ball player.  So good in fact that Longwood University offers him a scholarship.  He goes there and is having a fine career.  Then one day Coach K, whom our player knows because he is friends with Mike's daughter, says he has a place for him on the Duke team.

His choices are to stay at Longwood and be a star in Farmerville, VA (I kid you not Longwood is in Farmerville) a place that his family and friends didn't know anything about until they started recruiting him and until Longwood came to Durham to play Duke.  Added to this is the fact that Longwood is not in a conference yet and best case scenario is that he will have a chance at the NCAA Tourney his Sr. year.  

or

Go to Duke in his home town.  See his family and friends every day if he wants to and they of course think he is a HUGE deal because he is on the team even if he doesn't play much.  Be a part of the ACC, and unless something really weird happens be all but assured that he will be in the  NCAA's both his Jr. and Sr. seasons.  The price is now he is apt to be a role player or maybe just a bench warmer, although in his mind he is confident that he will play.  After all look how he lit Duke up when Longwood came to town.

What would you do?  


Another way to look at this is, if we were in a recruiting battle and it was coming down to SDSU and any Big 10 school who do you think would win most of the time?  Now add to the fact that the Big 10 school is in the recruit’s home town, who do you think wins.  It won't always be this way because someday SDSU will get in a conference and by virtue of the auto birth SDSU will have a better chance to get to the NCAA tourney then some of the Big 10 schools (but probably not Illinois).   


I am as sad as anyone to see Steve leave our program, the kid can play, but I am pretty sure that if I was in his shoes I would do the same thing he is doing.  Steve is transferring home to play for the team he grow up loving.  Who really can blame him?  I can't find any fault in this one, but I am still frustrated that it happened.


Go State!