Thoughts about moving up to FBS

[Prairiehaas]

When UNI moved up to D1, a few years back, I thought the core of the NCC made a mistake by not making the same move. I would feel the same today should a member of the MVFC announce a move up. I believe no member of the MVFC will be making announcement in the next 18-24 months. After that it is anyone's bet. I'm hoping and expect that SDSU's administration has already formulated contingencies to address this. I also believe SDSU will not repeat the mistake made 40 years ago.

[jakejc795]

When UNI moved up to D1, a few years back, I thought the core of the NCC made a mistake by not making the same move. I would feel the same today should a member of the MVFC announce a move up. I believe no member of the MVFC will be making announcement in the next 18-24 months. After that it is anyone's bet. I'm hoping and expect that SDSU's administration has already formulated contingencies to address this. I also believe SDSU will not repeat the mistake made 40 years ago.

"A few years back"?

UNI transitioned to IAA/FCS in the early '80s. You think the NCC was ready to make that move 20 years earlier than they did?

Relatedly, whose current trajectory seems most consistently upward now (UNI's or NDSU/SDSU's)?

[Prairiehaas]

Yep. In 1979, given the times and circumstances I thought the core of the NCC, SDSU, NDSU, UND, USD, should've gone up with Iowa Teachers (UNI). It would've taken some effort, but was achievable given the will. Augie, Morningside and UNO weren't ready and as it turned out never would be.

[jakejc795]

Yep. In 1979, given the times and circumstances I thought the core of the NCC, SDSU, NDSU, UND, USD, should've gone up with Iowa Teachers (UNI). It would've taken some effort, but was achievable given the will. Augie, Morningside and UNO weren't ready and as it turned out never would be.

"Will" being a marked increase in investments in facilities and construction, which UNI already had a jump on.

Even NDSU was more than a decade from having the Fargodome, and USD had just expended considerable capital getting the Dakotadome constructed.

[Prairiehaas]

Closing your eyes to the developing environment is a poor strategy. It took SDSU 10 years to find the will to begin to move forward while NDSU and UND had already begun. Meanwhile USD as an institution sat on it's laurels and regressed terribly for years. The forward thinking at SDSU starting in the late 1980's and continuing to today provides "the will" to move forward as an institution both in academics and athletics.

[jakejc795]

Closing your eyes to the developing environment is a poor strategy. It took SDSU 10 years to find the will to begin to move forward while NDSU and UND had already begun. Meanwhile USD as an institution sat on it's laurels and regressed terribly for years. The forward thinking at SDSU starting in the late 1980's and continuing to today provides "the will" to move forward as an institution both in academics and athletics.

My eye's are completely open.

Thinking UNI, NDSU, and SDSU were on equal footing in the 1980s ignores vital historical context.

How much do you think "but but, JMU and SHSU are moving to the FBS" now or "UNI is moving to 1AA" will/would have moved the needle among legislators and some university administrators (who, like it or not, would have been/will be needed for a significant portion of the investment)?

You seem to think it's a matter of snapping fingers, lamenting the "dilution" of FCS, and mobilizing athletics boosters. Shouldn't be breaking news that we're 18 months to a couple years from the narrative being how crippling the economic impact of the pandemic will be (and the actual impacts still being ascertained).

What conference do you think would have invited half the NCC 40 years ago?

[filbert]

My eye's are completely open.

Thinking UNI, NDSU, and SDSU were on equal footing in the 1980s ignores vital historical context.

How much do you think "but but, JMU and SHSU are moving to the FBS" now or "UNI is moving to 1AA" will/would have moved the needle among legislators and some university administrators (who, like it or not, would have been/will be needed for a significant portion of the investment)?

You seem to think it's a matter of snapping fingers, lamenting the "dilution" of FCS, and mobilizing athletics boosters. Shouldn't be breaking news that we're 18 months to a couple years from the narrative being how crippling the economic impact of the pandemic will be (and the actual impacts still being ascertained).

What conference do you think would have invited half the NCC 40 years ago?

There would have been no need for any conference to invite NCC school members 40 years ago--the requirement to be invited before moving to D-I came about much later.

I've personally thought the NCC should have moved up to the University Division when the Big Sky schools did, in 1968 (Big Sky stayed in the College Division for football only). At that time, the NCC was UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, State College of Iowa (UNI), Augustana, and Morningside. The latter two may or may not have had the resources to move up at the time. (In the 1968-69 men's basketball season by the way, SDSU was defeated in the Midwest Region final by SW Missouri State (now Missouri State) who made to the College Division national championship game.)

The next notable year was 1978, when Division I-AA was formed. The Big Sky then moved its football programs from Division II to Division I-AA. UNI moved up in 1981, 40 years ago.

(Above date/division info gleaned largely from various Wikipedia articles, so caveat emptor.)

SDSU's athletic history would have been completely different if the NCC had done it the way the Big Sky did. But what's done is done and what wasn't done wasn't done.

It is true that the ground underneath higher education's feet is shifting more now than it has, probably since the end of WWII and the GI Bill. It is unlikely that the higher education scene in general, and college athletics in particular, will be the same 20 or 40 or 60 years from now as it is today. Look at the changes at the ex-NCC schools and college athletics in general since 2001, let alone 1981 or 1961.

Change will happen.

(If you've read the book "The Fourth Turning" or similar, it's been pointed out that fairly significant societal changes come along every 75-100 years, and the last such change began with the 1929 stock market crash and culminated with World War II, which ended 76 years ago. Change will happen, how it will happen is probably impossible to accurately visualize.)

The upcoming NCAA constitutional convention which starts Monday, November 15th may change everything, or it may just tweak things around the edges, attempt to paper over the fault lines and the serious issues facing the NCAA and its members, and make official the levels of athletics (especially football) that already de facto exist. We'll start having a better idea where all of this is currently going after November 15.

(Again, I'll point out that NDSU's President is on the NCAA Constitution Committee, so I'm sure he is making sure that the view of college athletics from NDSU (which really isn't too different than the view from SDSU) is being heard and considered.)

Coming back to SDSU:

Now, if I recall correctly, the DJD was designed with significant (~30,000 capacity) expansion in mind. I'm sure that the future of the university and its athletics are actively discussed within the university on a fairly regular basis, and nothing's been completely ruled out. At least, I hope so. I'm in the "never rule anything out" camp.

[jakejc795]

There would have been no need for any conference to invite NCC school members 40 years ago--the requirement to be invited before moving to D-I came about much later.

I've personally thought the NCC should have moved up to the University Division when the Big Sky schools did, in 1968 (Big Sky stayed in the College Division for football only). At that time, the NCC was UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, State College of Iowa (UNI), Augustana, and Morningside. The latter two may or may not have had the resources to move up at the time. (In the 1968-69 men's basketball season by the way, SDSU was defeated in the Midwest Region final by SW Missouri State (now Missouri State) who made to the College Division national championship game.)

The next notable year was 1978, when Division I-AA was formed. The Big Sky then moved its football programs from Division II to Division I-AA. UNI moved up in 1981, 40 years ago.

SDSU's athletic history would have been completely different if the NCC had done it the way the Big Sky did. But what's done is done and what wasn't done wasn't done.

It is true that the ground underneath higher education's feet is shifting more now than it has, probably since the end of WWII and the GI Bill. It is unlikely that the higher education scene in general, and college athletics in particular, will be the same 20 or 40 or 60 years from now as it is today. Look at the changes at the ex-NCC schools and college athletics in general since 2001, let alone 1981 or 1961.

Change will happen.

(If you've read the book "The Fourth Turning" or similar, it's been pointed out that fairly significant societal changes come along every 75-100 years, and the last such change began with the 1929 stock market crash and culminated with World War II, which ended 76 years ago. Change will happen, how it will happen is probably impossible to accurately visualize.)

The upcoming NCAA constitutional convention which starts Monday, November 15th may change everything, or it may just tweak things around the edges, attempt to paper over the fault lines and the serious issues facing the NCAA and its members, and make official the levels of athletics (especially football) that already de facto exist. We'll start having a better idea where all of this is currently going after November 15.

(Again, I'll point out that NDSU's President is on the NCAA Constitution Committee, so I'm sure he is making sure that the view of college athletics from NDSU (which really isn't too different than the view from SDSU) is being heard and considered.)

Coming back to SDSU:

Now, if I recall correctly, the DJD was designed with significant (~30,000 capacity) expansion in mind. I'm sure that the future of the university and its athletics are actively discussed within the university on a fairly regular basis, and nothing's been completely ruled out. At least, I hope so. I'm in the "never rule anything out" camp.

One of my arguments is that it's flawed to argue that one should consider the MAC a feasible option to recoup expansion (or even existing DJD-associated) costs given their weeknight schedules and drastically reduced attendance.

It's also highly unlikely a move such as you describe would've occurred concurrently with (or even within a few years of) Dakotadome construction.

Lastly, we seem to be forgetting that those who opted to transition to DI were savaged for doing so when that was proposed, and that move was considerably later than the early-80s timeframe discussed.

[filbert]

One of my arguments is that it's flawed to argue that one should consider the MAC a feasible option to recoup expansion (or even existing DJD-associated) costs given their weeknight schedules and drastically reduced attendance.

It's also highly unlikely a move such as you describe would've occurred concurrently with (or even within a few years of) Dakotadome construction.

Lastly, we seem to be forgetting that those who opted to transition to DI were savaged for doing so when that was proposed, and that move was considerably later than the early-80s timeframe discussed.

Wholeheartedly agree that a move to the MAC would be at best a lateral move, and likely would be a half-step backward from where SDSU is now.

[Prairiehaas]

"Lastly, we seem to be forgetting that those who opted to transition to DI were savaged for doing so when that was proposed, and that move was considerably later than the early-80s timeframe discussed."

Yes, the problem in a nutshell. Leadership with vision would've seen the landscape in the 1970's and positioned the institutions for advancement. Instead USD got a too small dome because they didn't find funding beyond the initial gift. SDSU did nothing to position for a move until the situation was nearly untenable (which USD ignored). Any change is going to be a bit of a gamble, but with leadership and planning it can be managed leading to higher levels of success, as we see in the current day. I hope the mistakes of the 1970's do not repeat.

[filbert]

"Lastly, we seem to be forgetting that those who opted to transition to DI were savaged for doing so when that was proposed, and that move was considerably later than the early-80s timeframe discussed."

Yes, the problem in a nutshell. Leadership with vision would've seen the landscape in the 1970's and positioned the institutions for advancement. Instead USD got a too small dome because they didn't find funding beyond the initial gift. SDSU did nothing to position for a move until the situation was nearly untenable (which USD ignored). Any change is going to be a bit of a gamble, but with leadership and planning it can be managed leading to higher levels of success, as we see in the current day. I hope the mistakes of the 1970's do not repeat.

Back in the 20th Century (which still looks weird to me, because you see I'm old!) South Dakota always historically had a pretty strong inferiority complex in general--an "oh, we're just a sparsely populated "small" state, we can't compete in the big time." SDSU moving to and having success in D-I (the SDSU women exploding onto the D-I basketball scene and damn near beat Baylor in their first year of eligibility to go to the Sweet 16, and following up that success year after year; the men's BB NCAA appearances and SDSU's pivotal role in making the Summit League tournament in Sioux Falls such a success; the success of football and other programs at the D-I level, culminated by the appearance in the FCS championship game), along with the phenomenal growth of the Sioux Falls metro area in the past 20-30 years, has erased quite a bit of that inferiority complex, I think. SDSU's leadership is now far more forward-thinking, I believe, than it was in the 1960's-1980's time frame.

[jakejc795]

Back in the 20th Century (which still looks weird to me, because you see I'm old!) South Dakota always historically had a pretty strong inferiority complex in general--an "oh, we're just a sparsely populated "small" state, we can't compete in the big time." SDSU moving to and having success in D-I (the SDSU women exploding onto the D-I basketball scene and damn near beat Baylor in their first year of eligibility to go to the Sweet 16, and following up that success year after year; the men's BB NCAA appearances and SDSU's pivotal role in making the Summit League tournament in Sioux Falls such a success; the success of football and other programs at the D-I level, culminated by the appearance in the FCS championship game), along with the phenomenal growth of the Sioux Falls metro area in the past 20-30 years, has erased quite a bit of that inferiority complex, I think. SDSU's leadership is now far more forward-thinking, I believe, than it was in the 1960's-1980's time frame.

Would you say the same for the Legislature?

[filbert]

Would you say the same for the Legislature?

hey, I'm in Missouri, you tell me!

[jakejc795]

hey, I'm in Missouri, you tell me!

Let's just say it was a leading question

[mnjackrbt]

Here's what I would like to see, and I am going to call them levels.
Level 1 (basically FBS): ACC, Big 12, Big 10, Pac 12, SEC - They do whatever they want. They are a league of their own. They want a full on playoff system, sure. Crappy bowl games, sure. Whatever they want.
Level 2 (basically FCS, whether you consider the top FCS conferences moving up to FBS or you consider it the lower FBS conferences dropping down to FCS): American, C-USA, MAC, Sun Belt plus Big Sky, CAA, MVFC, Southland - They form their own league that would be fairly quality football and play in a legit playoff like what the FCS currently has.
Level 3 (basically lower tier FCS conferences, maybe some D2 schools or conferences bump up to it?) - Big South, Great West, IVY, MEAC, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Pioneer, Southern, SWAC