Thoughts about moving up to FBS

[gabe01]

So it appears the FCS is going to get more watered down with James Madison leaving the the FBS. Now Sam Houston, Central Arkansas, Jacksonville State and a bunch of other quality FCS programs are rumored to be leaving and they want to expand the playoffs which is already watered down

What are your thoughts about jumping to the FBS in football only with NDSU? It was a smart move moving up together from D2

Obviously the Summit is a perfect fit so nobody wants to leave that, so it would have to be football only.

In a perfect world, the Mountain West makes the most sense but that would never happen until Boise and another team leaves

Conference USA is about to implode and they've been talking to Sam Houston State. The only way they are going to survive is with an influx of top tiered FCS teams. They have an opportunity to reinvent their footprint

Conference USA Bowl games include The Bahamas Bowl, Hawaii Bowl, New Orleans Bowl, and 11 other ESPN owned Bowls

https://conferenceusa.com/news/2020/...wl-lineup.aspx

Also the Conference Championship game is hosted by the team with the best record on CBS Sports Network

How would a football conference of these teams look?

Remaining C-USA teams
UTEP*
FIU *
Louisiana Tech *
Middle Tennessee *
Western Kentucky *

Possible new teams
Sam Houston
Central Arkansas
Jacksonville State
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Montana
Montana State
Missouri State
Southern Illinois
Liberty
New Mexico State
UConn
UMASS

You could do home and homes with most G5 teams. Would you prefer Appalachian State, Army or Air Force in a home non conference game... or Drake, Dixie State or Lindenwood?

When you play a Big 10, Big 12 or SEC team, they will pay you literally 3 times as much. Example: You guys are going to Nebraska and they are paying like 500k. They are paying Georgia Southern 1.3 million. Texas is paying someone 2.5 million. Thr SEC pays nearly 2 million for all non conference

Thoughts?

[JackJD]

Interesting subject. I don't know what to think about a move to FBS but I'm sure it's a topic we're all going to hear about. The top-tier FBS teams are money machines. But I wonder if the athletic administrators at a majority of the FBS schools study their football budgets and silently wish they were in FCS.

Gabe notes in his post "You guys are going to Nebraska and they are paying like 500k. They are paying Georgia Southern 1.3 million. Texas is paying someone 2.5 million. Thr SEC pays nearly 2 million for all non conference," Good point in today's climate but will that pay schedule change in the aftermath of the current movement in FBS? I think there is a likelihood that paydays will decine in value:as the supply of lower-tier FBS programs needing a payday game for budget purposes, increases. The top paydays may decline significiantly and perhaps $1mm paydays will end and $500k paydays will be the norm.

How many FCS teams can come up with the money to add 22 more football scholarships to reach 85, and another 22 schoalrships to stay in compiance with Title IX? What will happen with some of the "non-revenue" sports at all schools but particularly at a school like SDSU which has more sports than most schools? How many sports are going to be cut?

It wasn't long ago that Jacks fans were debating leaving D2 for D1 and FCS football. In my book, the move turned out remarkably well for the entire University, not just the athletic department, all as predicted by then-President Miller and then-AD Oien. But I think a move from FCS to FBS is not the same as the D2 to D1 move that was hotly debated in 2007. In 2007, President Miller preached that it was about time we joined our peers in D1 and she predicted that the big change would be in academic prestige with visible markers such as tremendous growth in research dollars. She was right. I don't see a move to FBS having a great impact on the University outside of the Athletic Dept.

One more random thought: If there is a rush to leave FCS by programs that are our football peers -- basically the list Gabe identifies as "possible new (FBS) teams" --.you know, the "usual suspects" when it comes time for playoffs -- then we may have to stay with the peers or risk being 'returned' to D2 with just a different name.

I think we are fortunate to have Justin Sell as the AD when it comes to working through these issues.

[gabe01]

Interesting subject. I don't know what to think about a move to FBS but I'm sure it's a topic we're all going to hear about. The top-tier FBS teams are money machines. But I wonder if the athletic administrators at a majority of the FBS schools study their football budgets and silently wish they were in FCS.

Gabe notes in his post "You guys are going to Nebraska and they are paying like 500k. They are paying Georgia Southern 1.3 million. Texas is paying someone 2.5 million. Thr SEC pays nearly 2 million for all non conference," Good point in today's climate but will that pay schedule change in the aftermath of the current movement in FBS? I think there is a likelihood that paydays will decine in value:as the supply of lower-tier FBS programs needing a payday game for budget purposes, increases. The top paydays may decline significiantly and perhaps $1mm paydays will end and $500k paydays will be the norm.

How many FCS teams can come up with the money to add 22 more football scholarships to reach 85, and another 22 schoalrships to stay in compiance with Title IX? What will happen with some of the "non-revenue" sports at all schools but particularly at a school like SDSU which has more sports than most schools? How many sports are going to be cut?

It wasn't long ago that Jacks fans were debating leaving D2 for D1 and FCS football. In my book, the move turned out remarkably well for the entire University, not just the athletic department, all as predicted by then-President Miller and then-AD Oien. But I think a move from FCS to FBS is not the same as the D2 to D1 move that was hotly debated in 2007. In 2007, President Miller preached that it was about time we joined our peers in D1 and she predicted that the big change would be in academic prestige with visible markers such as tremendous growth in research dollars. She was right. I don't see a move to FBS having a great impact on the University outside of the Athletic Dept.

One more random thought: If there is a rush to leave FCS by programs that are our football peers -- basically the list Gabe identifies as "possible new (FBS) teams" --.you know, the "usual suspects" when it comes time for playoffs -- then we may have to stay with the peers or risk being 'returned' to D2 with just a different name.

I think we are fortunate to have Justin Sell as the AD when it comes to working through these issues.

I'm a Bison fan. For all the youngins, here's what happened in D2.

I guarantee history will repeat itself

1970s, Division 2 allowed something like 52 scholarships. It was a really solid level of D2 but only the really elite conferences could afford it. Teams like NDSU would spend the max and put a really good product on the field. Other NCC teams did the same to be competitive and you would see an NCC team win the National Championship every year. Northern Colorado won 2 National Championships. UND won one. NDSU made 6 and won 5. USD made the Championship once. The weak NCC teams like Morningside couldn't compete and left.

Other conferences bitched and they lowered it to 48 scholarships, then 42. Then. they lowered it to 38. Then 36. Suddenly there was more parity but the quality of football declined. But it's even gotten worse because most D2 Conferences set limits. The Northern Sun has a cap of 18

Then they expanded the playoffs and cut the number of at large teams. You would have years where a National Championship worthy team would miss the playoffs in the NCC. Our last year in the NCC, we were 8-3 with a win over D1AA Montana and we didn't make the playoffs. Instead some cupcake tream like Concordia St Paul got in instead and lost by like 50 in the playoffs

But it got worse because the NCAA promoted it less. Then they stopped broadcasting it completely. The early NDSU D2 Championship games were on ESPN. Later ones they allowed Fargo's WDAY to buy the rights, so no national audience saw it. To show how low it is on the totem pole in 2020... they canceled the Championship game because of Covid

That's where FCS is headed. Lots of parallels to the MVFC dominating and the NCC dominating.

[Mr_Tibbs]

I agree with much of what is posted by Gabe. I think the problem for me is the fact that until the G5 has their own playoff system, I just can’t get behind moving up knowing there’s no way to ever compete for a championship. At least in D1 basketball, every team has a shot at March Madness. But you’re crazy if you think the CFP expanding to 8 or 12 or even 16 teams is going to open up slots for G5 teams. They will find a way to include two and three loss SEC teams in those slots instead. The only way a move up makes sense is if the CFP becomes a system with auto bids for all leagues plus at large (highly unlikely) or the G5 do their own playoff (more likely but still a low chance).

I don’t like the thought of those FCS blue bloods leaving us behind either, but I also think we haven’t accomplished yet even close to what NDSU has to consider the move. If we had just spent the last decade winning FCS championships, I could rationalize moving up in the current format without much of a chance to play for a championship. They have very little left to accomplish in FCS. But right now, I feel like we are an ascending program that is on the cusp of some very good years ahead and to move now would short change a chance for that success. There is an argument to made that if we win a couple titles and JMU, SHSU, etc. aren’t in the division, does it really count? And I’m not going to argue it would be watered down. It would be. I just think we can’t really entertain moving up until we’ve accomplished our goals here, which is a national title. And I think we are very close. In an ideal world, I’d say we stay for the next five or so years and hopefully win a couple championships, then move to a G5 that has its own playoff system.

I agree with the poster that said D2 to D1 is different than FCS to FBS. Moving D1 was the best decision we could have made. I’m not sure moving to FBS with pressure to stay with peers is the best. We would be giving up a lot, and I think we need to accomplish our goals in FCS first before entertaining the move up. I will end with this though: if we find ourselves in a division that doesn’t include land grant/flagships like NDSU, Montana, MSU, Delaware, etc., we need to move up regardless. Right now we still have a lot of peers in FCS. Academically at least, JMU isn’t one of them. Neither is Sam Houston. From a football standpoint, they obviously are. So I think that there is a threshold where if enough teams are leaving, we have to consider it no matter what. I’m not sure we are at that point yet though.

[JACKGUYII]

I don't think the number of FCS championships you win is the litmus test for going FBS. If that was the case then we had no business moving up from D2 to FCS. We barely sniffed the playoffs ever in D2 and yet now we have made the playoffs at the FCS level 9 straight times with two semi finals appearances and a national championship game last year. With the exception of NDSU, we have been one of the most consistent and successful programs at the FCS level over the last 10 years. Is our most recent success due to the departure of the powers like App State, Georgia Southern and Coastal Carolina and others? I too would like to see a G5 playoff system to measure success, but if success is defined by winning conference championships and beating power 5 conference teams I'm good with that and believe our program would too. We have G5 FBS facilities right now with opportunity to grow the fan base. I think staying in the Summit is a wise move with the regional rivals. I believe in Justin Sell and President Dunn will make the right moves and determine if we can financially make the move.

[JackJD]

I don't think the number of FCS championships you win is the litmus test for going FBS. If that was the case then we had no business moving up from D2 to FCS. We barely sniffed the playoffs ever in D2 and yet now we have made the playoffs at the FCS level 9 straight times with two semi finals appearances and a national championship game last year. With the exception of NDSU, we have been one of the most consistent and successful programs at the FCS level over the last 10 years. ...

I agree with JACKGUYII.

The FBS money commitment concerns me.

[JackJD]

Following today’s game, I don’t have much interest in thinking about FBS. We have big challenges each Saturday in the rest of this season.

[jakejc795]

I agree with JACKGUYII.

The FBS money commitment concerns me.

Exactly, the difference between transition from D2 to FCS vs FCS to FBS is considerable.

Following today’s game, I don’t have much interest in thinking about FBS. We have big challenges each Saturday in the rest of this season.

Zimmer retweeted that games like yesterday's cause attendance to plummet from 16k to 6k. I don't see it happening 11/6, but it'll be interesting to see what 11/20 attendance will be, and the betting line on a fickle fanbase's allegiance when pondering a jump to FBS should be highly relevant to Administration. Admitting we might not be able to compete with the investment JMU, SHSU, or even NDSU would be making prior to an FBS move is not an admission that we can't compete with them on the field.

[mitchellrabbit]

Exactly, the difference between transition from D2 to FCS vs FCS to FBS is considerable.



Zimmer retweeted that games like yesterday's cause attendance to plummet from 16k to 6k. I don't see it happening 11/6, but it'll be interesting to see what 11/20 attendance will be, and the betting line on a fickle fanbase's allegiance when pondering a jump to FBS should be highly relevant to Administration. Admitting we might not be able to compete with the investment JMU, SHSU, or even NDSU would be making prior to an FBS move is not an admission that we can't compete with them on the field.

Attendance for the bison game will be better than Hobo Day because the bison fans will help to make that happen. The UND game was going to be under 10,000 whether we won or lost yesterday. Unless we have weather in the 60’s and we win the next 3 games.

[jakejc795]

Attendance for the bison game will be better than Hobo Day because the bison fans will help to make that happen. The UND game was going to be under 10,000 whether we won or lost yesterday. Unless we have weather in the 60’s and we win the next 3 games.

I was hoping for at least 12k for Military Appreciation, particularly with likely playoff implications. Just curious, would you be willing to mortgage potential FBS future on what Jacks' attendance has been?

[mitchellrabbit]

I was hoping for at least 12k for Military Appreciation, particularly with likely playoff implications. Just curious, would you be willing to mortgage potential FBS future on what Jacks' attendance has been?

i dont want us to go FBS.

[my view]

The Mt. West Conference ABSOLUTELY needs to be a long term goal for SDSU and NDSU. It's true that the Mt. West probably won't expand until two existing teams leave. It sounds like there's a fair chance of that happening with Boise and San Diego St getting noticed by P5 conferences. Aside from NDSU, our academic peers don't play in the MVFC or the Summit League. They mostly play in the Mt. West, which includes the following land grant institutions:

Wyoming
Colorado State
Utah State
Nevada
Hawaii (football only)
New Mexico (not a land grant, but the state's flagship institution)

Yes, the costs of moving up would be substantial, but that shouldn't end the conversation. Each school in the Mt. West currently gets $4 million/year in TV revenue. I can't imagine we're anywhere close to that in the MVFC and Summit League. I don't care if we won't play for a National Championship in football. For the most part, our fans don't either, which is clearly evident by our poor playoff attendance (except for the Nat. Championship Game) over the years.

I'd be in favor of joining the Mt. West in all sports, not just football. Yes, it's convenient that the Summit League Tournament is in Sioux Falls, but the Summit is still a 1-bid conference. The Mt. West typically gets two bids. Heck, they got five in 2013! If we ever want to get out of the 13/14 seed that the Summit typically gets in the NCAA BB tournament, we'll have to be in a better league.

[jakejc795]

The Mt. West Conference ABSOLUTELY needs to be a long term goal for SDSU and NDSU. It's true that the Mt. West probably won't expand until two existing teams leave. It sounds like there's a fair chance of that happening with Boise and San Diego St getting noticed by P5 conferences. Aside from NDSU, our academic peers don't play in the MVFC or the Summit League. They mostly play in the Mt. West, which includes the following land grant institutions:

Wyoming
Colorado State
Utah State
Nevada
Hawaii (football only)
New Mexico (not a land grant, but the state's flagship institution)

Yes, the costs of moving up would be substantial, but that shouldn't end the conversation. Each school in the Mt. West currently gets $4 million/year in TV revenue. I can't imagine we're anywhere close to that in the MVFC and Summit League. I don't care if we won't play for a National Championship in football. For the most part, our fans don't either, which is clearly evident by our poor playoff attendance (except for the Nat. Championship Game) over the years.

I'd be in favor of joining the Mt. West in all sports, not just football. Yes, it's convenient that the Summit League Tournament is in Sioux Falls, but the Summit is still a 1-bid conference. The Mt. West typically gets two bids. Heck, they got five in 2013! If we ever want to get out of the 13/14 seed that the Summit typically gets in the NCAA BB tournament, we'll have to be in a better league.

Boise State receives more than $4 million because they negotiated exclusive broadcast contracts to disincentivize their exit from MWC, and rumors were that the Rams and Air Force were among teams considering an eventual exit.

You may notice that this report also mentions that AAC (the rumored destination of at least a couple MWC teams) was likely to be renegotiated following Central Florida, Cincinnati, and Houston exits, so there's no assurance reconstituted MWC membership would continue to receive $4m after Boise State and San Diego State left (unless the Bison could argue their FCS championship bona fides merit FBS financial reward and Jacks can say "the media's been referring to us as 'San Diego State' for years anyway, so we should be paid accordingly").

The argument could be made that SDSU's FBS academic peers, particularly those with ag., pharmacy, and nursing foci aren't in the MWC, they're in the Big Ten and 12 (Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, and Iowa State), and no, I'm not saying that means Jacks should strive for Big 10/12 invitations; my argument is that one's academic peers aren't necessarily indicative of what their athletic conference affiliation is/should be

[filbert]

What happens in the future will be drastically affected by the forthcoming NCAA constitutional convention that runs from November through January. Schools close to the "border" of D-I FCS and FBS (such as NDSU/SDSU) will likely be the ones most affected by whatever comes out of this.

Of note it that NDSU's president is a part of the committee driving the new NCAA constitution.

https://www.ncaa.org/constitution-re...mittee-charter

1. Charge.

The Constitution Committee will address transformational, organizational change through the redrafting of the principles, governance structure and membership commitments found in the NCAA Constitution to meet the needs of today’s student-athletes and in the generations to come to include the following:

Identify the overarching principles that define college sports for the future.
Align authority and responsibility among the campus, conference, and national levels, including the current divisional and subdivisional structures.
Propose a system of governance that provides for nimble change without the sacrifice of identified principles.
Gather input from higher education and college athletics stakeholders, especially student-athletes, to identify the core principles of college sports that will further inform the role of the national association, its member conferences and schools, and subsequent members’ bylaw review with respect to the following:
Membership criteria.
School accountability in meeting membership criteria.
Academic success.
Health and safety.
Eligibility and recruiting.
Inclusion and equity.
Allocation of resources.
Sustainability of sports participation.
Championship opportunities.
Playing rules.
Areas not yet defined.
Propose a system of rules enforcement that considers the role of the national association and places appropriate responsibility at the school or conference level.
Draft constitutional articles that address current gaps and deficiencies of the organization’s governance of NCAA athletics and align authority and responsibility in college sports that are consistent with the defined principles, which would inform the membership on how to proceed with a bylaw review after the constitution is rewritten and adopted.

2. Composition.

The NCAA Board of Governors shall appoint the NCAA Constitution Committee, which shall consist of 28 voting members, including 15 Division I members, four Division II members, four Division III members, three student-athletes one faculty athletics representative, and two independent NCAA Board of Governors members. The NCAA president shall serve as an ex-officio member of the committee.

Division I members (15)
Five presidents/chancellors
Four athletics directors
Three conference commissioners
Three additional designees
Division II members (4)
To include at least one president, one athletics director and two designees of their choice.
Division III members (4)
To include at least one president, one athletics director and two designees of their choice.
Three student-athlete members (3)
Independent members (2)
Two independent members of the NCAA Board of Governors.

3. Duties and Responsibilities of the Committee.

Gather input from the higher education and higher education athletics stakeholders, including student-athletes.
Engage campus, conference personnel, subject matter experts and national office staff, as appropriate.
Establish milestones and metrics to guide progress toward completion of the drafting, including sharing working drafts with the membership at the NCAA Special Convention in November 2021.
Maintain confidentiality and discretion in the course of the committee work while providing periodic updates to the Board of Governors and to those designated by the board.
Recognize and adhere to deliberations and recommendations that represent the best interests of college athletics and not based on self-interest, employment interest, or the interests of affiliations.
Provide a singular recommendation for constitutional provisions to be adopted. If at times the committee is challenged with reaching consensus, it will reach out to an expert facilitator to help achieve consensus.

4.Timeline.

The NCAA Constitution Committee will begin its work immediately upon appointment and deliver a working draft for the membership’s input at the NCAA Special Convention no later than November 15, 2021. The Committee will submit its final product to the NCAA Board of Governors by December 15, 2021.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...mittee-members

Brad Bankston — Commissioner, Old Dominion Athletic Conference.
Sandy Barbour — Vice president for intercollegiate athletics, Penn State.
Dean Bresciani — President, North Dakota State.
Greg Christopher — Vice president for administration, director of athletics, Xavier.
Mary Sue Coleman — Former president, Association of American Universities, independent board member.
Troy Dannen — Director of athletics, Tulane.
John DeGioia — President, Georgetown.
Robert M. Gates (chair) — Former U.S. secretary of defense, former president, Texas A&M, independent board member.
Robin Harris — Executive director, The Ivy League.
Chris Howard — President, Robert Morris.
Gayle Hutchinson — President, Chico State.
Jim Johnson — Director of athletics, Pittsburg State.
Megan Koch — Track and field, Colorado College.
Linda Livingstone — President, Baylor.
Shane Lyons — Director of athletics, associate vice president, West Virginia.
Madeleine McKenna — Volleyball, California University of Pennsylvania.
Fayneese Miller — President, Hamline.
Jere Morehead — President, Georgia.
Gloria Nevarez — Commissioner, West Coast Conference.
Jim Phillips — Commissioner, Atlantic Coast Conference.
Julie Ruppert — Commissioner, Northeast-10 Conference.
Darryl Sims — Director of athletics, Wisconsin-Oshkosh.
Kendall Spencer — Track and field, New Mexico.

[filbert]

NCAA Constitutional Convention survey results

Include this comment of especial interest to SDSU and similar universities:

Suggestions for Modifying the Divisional Structure

Those who somewhat to strongly agreed that there was a need to change the current divisional structure, were given an open-ended prompt asking them to describe their vision. Comments included:

Increase the number of divisions — often calling for an expansion of Division I, or in some cases Division III.

My visions would be two parts: (1) Give the Power 5 their own division, separate from the rest of DI, while keeping DII as it is; and (2) divide up DIII into two divisions based on enrollment or public/private. –Division III director of athletics, Coast-To-Coast Athletic Conference

Break the autonomy conferences out of Division I and permit self-governance.

The autonomy five conferences should be an organization unto itself — leaving the NCAA to manage everyone else. –Division I president, Southeastern Conference

Reconsider Division I subdivisions by extracting FBS Football from NCAA oversight.

I think FBS football needs to be its own entity and has become disconnected from the rest of the NCAA. ... Football now feels like an outlier and NCAA Division I has lost control of it. Division I basketball is also concerning but there is more parity there. –Division III director of athletics, Centennial Conference

Restructure divisional membership, taking into account geography, campus enrollment or resource level.