ORU talking with Southland

[FargoBison]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Like anything in the NCAA, it all comes down to money my friend. ALL schools in the SL have received a larger benefit due to the current location including ORU.

Not to mention playing in front of a decent crowd...

And I agree with the geographical argument to some extent, to the extent that the only other southern school was Centenary.

Every school wants the tournament in their backyard, that is something the league is going to have deal with. In the end that is what each school cares about, not whatever money or crowds it generates the tournament in SF.

[filbert]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

according to Google Maps:
Tulsa to Fargo: 13h 36m
Tulsa to Corpus Christi: 11h 19m

The Southland is losing Texas State, UTSA, and Texas-Arlington (at least), and some of the other football-playing members are making move-up-to-FBS sounds as well. I suspect the Southland will be pretty much forced to add Texas-Pan American, making the longest Southland trip for ORU Tulsa-Edinburg, TX 12 h 50 m. Sure the weather is better but the Southland is actually a much less stable and healthy conference right now than the Summit which, with a few breaks here and there, is conceivably within striking distance of being a multiple-bid NCAA men's basketball tournament league in the next couple of years.

It looks to me like this is probably a combination of "grass is greener?" option-viewing, a bit of unhappiness at the competitiveness of the new Summit members (IPFW, SDSU, NDSU, and coming USD), and probably more unhappiness with Sioux Falls' aggressiveness at getting and keeping the basketball tournament.

But the main point is that moving from the Summit to the Southland in the next year or two looks to me to be a conference downgrade, not a conference upgrade. Schools don't do that unless they absolutely, positively have to. So unless there are institution-threatening financial problems at ORU (which is possible), moving to the Southland doesn't make much sense to me, given the instability of the Southland vis a vis the Summit.

[LakeJack]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

according to Google Maps:
Tulsa to Fargo: 13h 36m
Tulsa to Corpus Christi: 11h 19m

The Southland is losing Texas State, UTSA, and Texas-Arlington (at least), and some of the other football-playing members are making move-up-to-FBS sounds as well. I suspect the Southland will be pretty much forced to add Texas-Pan American, making the longest Southland trip for ORU Tulsa-Edinburg, TX 12 h 50 m. Sure the weather is better but the Southland is actually a much less stable and healthy conference right now than the Summit which, with a few breaks here and there, is conceivably within striking distance of being a multiple-bid NCAA men's basketball tournament league in the next couple of years.

This! And I agree with others, you want the tourney go get it. Put in a good bid, if you can't because no one will buy tickets and no one in your city really cares so you can't find corp. sponsors - well that tells you something now doesn't it. No way the conference should let any school hold them hostage by threatening to leave. Don't know if that is what ORU is doing, just sayin'

[LakeJack]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

a slightly different story

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextr...1_OralRo406535

[BTownJack]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

a slightly different story

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextr...1_OralRo406535

From the above article:

The Southland Conference was rated eighth among the 32 major-college baseball conferences on one RPI facsimile website and ninth on another. The Summit League was rated 27th on both sites.

That is something that ORU would put alot of stock into. I'm too lazy to look it up, has the Southland ever gotten more than one team in the tourney?

[Theee Catrabbit]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Every school wants the tournament in their backyard, that is something the league is going to have deal with. In the end that is what each school cares about, not whatever money or crowds it generates the tournament in SF.

Really? The schools don't care about the money? I think you are kidding yourself there.

[GopherHole]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

according to Google Maps:
Tulsa to Fargo: 13h 36m
Tulsa to Corpus Christi: 11h 19m

The Southland is losing Texas State, UTSA, and Texas-Arlington (at least), and some of the other football-playing members are making move-up-to-FBS sounds as well. I suspect the Southland will be pretty much forced to add Texas-Pan American, making the longest Southland trip for ORU Tulsa-Edinburg, TX 12 h 50 m. Sure the weather is better but the Southland is actually a much less stable and healthy conference right now than the Summit which, with a few breaks here and there, is conceivably within striking distance of being a multiple-bid NCAA men's basketball tournament league in the next couple of years.

It looks to me like this is probably a combination of "grass is greener?" option-viewing, a bit of unhappiness at the competitiveness of the new Summit members (IPFW, SDSU, NDSU, and coming USD), and probably more unhappiness with Sioux Falls' aggressiveness at getting and keeping the basketball tournament.

But the main point is that moving from the Summit to the Southland in the next year or two looks to me to be a conference downgrade, not a conference upgrade. Schools don't do that unless they absolutely, positively have to. So unless there are institution-threatening financial problems at ORU (which is possible), moving to the Southland doesn't make much sense to me, given the instability of the Southland vis a vis the Summit.

Geography-wise, ORU just doesn't have a conference that fits like a glove. Yes, the 13+ hour trip to Fargo can be brutal in the winter. They even have a 16h 18m trip to Oakland (if they actually drove it.) The Southland conference has only one relatively close trip at 4 hours to Central Arkansas. The Summit can match that at 4h 24m to Kansas City. Overall, their average drive time (which they don't do much of), is 10h 29m for the Summit and 8h 22m for the Southland. Not a fun average trip regardless.

However, I can see how perception with recruits may make it easier for them in the Southland. OK, AR, TX, LA are all south central states that their recruiting base understands for their main two sports - basketball and baseball. ND, SD, NE, MO, IL, IN, MI are hardly regional schools for them, based on a high school recruit's perception. Unfortunately, perception is often reality. For a baseball recruit, they can expect to play many spring games in those locations without fear of cold or snow. They would also have to feel like they stand a very good chance of making the postseason in both sports year after year.

Filbert, you make several valid points, including the perception of losing the conference tourney to Sioux Falls. It would be easy to see that the "grass is greener" perception could be clouding their vision of the stability of the Southland Conference. Many other factors like modestly less travel, better fit for recruits, and being the big dog again may be the key factors for them.

[BTownJack]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

From the above article:

The Southland Conference was rated eighth among the 32 major-college baseball conferences on one RPI facsimile website and ninth on another. The Summit League was rated 27th on both sites.

That is something that ORU would put alot of stock into. I'm too lazy to look it up, has the Southland ever gotten more than one team in the tourney?

Correction - I believe the article is wrong about Southland's RPI. According to RealTimeRPI the Southland isn't any better than the Summit League:

2010-2011 (Summit 21, Southland 29): http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
2009-2010 (Summit 23, Southland 26): http://realtimerpi.com/2009-2010/rpi_conf_Men.html
2008-2009 (Summit 26, Southland 19): http://realtimerpi.com/2009-2010/rpi_conf_Men.html

So obviosly the Southland is not a multi-bid conference either.

[joeybrownerHOF]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Btown- the article refers to Baseball RPI which is obviously important to ORU


None of these are ideal but here it goes.

I only noted football since they may or may not also need a home for that program.

SCHOOLS LOOKING TO MOVE
UMSL- St. Louis. pretty close to making the jump to D-1. No football
Bellarmine- Louisville, KY. won the d-2 mens basketball last year. currently exploring move. No football
Central Oklahoma-Edmond, Ok (near Tulsa)- said to be looking to move up. football

HORIZON SHAKEUP
Valpo- would they come back to Summit? Non scholly football (pioneer)

NCC2.0
Saint Cloud- threatened to drop football last year and maybe that was a way to test the backlash. IMHO, if they move up it would be without football
Mankato- see above
Duluth- can't see them doing it. UMTC might block move if with football
St. Thomas- should but won't
und-I could actually see this happen.

Michigan
Grand Valley State or Wayne State (MI)- Both would need to get rid of big fish small pond mentality but this would comfort Oakland and establish an east/west conference alignment. Both have football. Would somewhat mimic the Big Sky strategy of absorbing teams on extreme borders.


Again, I am not saying any of these schools would be a slam dunk. Also, most of the schools would need to move up and/or drop an established program. In this climate the dumping of an established program happens, see UNO. There is also a chance that the MVC gets raided which will have some possible positive consequences.

[LakeJack]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Correction - I believe the article is wrong about Southland's RPI. According to RealTimeRPI the Southland isn't any better than the Summit League:

2010-2011 (Summit 21, Southland 29): http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
2009-2010 (Summit 23, Southland 26): http://realtimerpi.com/2009-2010/rpi_conf_Men.html
2008-2009 (Summit 26, Southland 19): http://realtimerpi.com/2009-2010/rpi_conf_Men.html

So obviosly the Southland is not a multi-bid conference either.

You are talking about Basketball the story is talkking about Baseball. Hard to imagine anyone switching conferences because of college baseball. Don't get me wrong I really like college baseball, but it is not the sport that is usually driving the athletic department.

The Summit is better for basketball and trending up.

[LakeJack]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

What about Northern Kentucky and Eastern Illinois

[joeybrownerHOF]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Agree on both UNK and EI.

[rabidrabbit]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Understand that Basketball and Baseball will drive the decision. Men's basketball in the Summit is getting closer to challenging the Horizon or the MVC for getting 2 teams to the NCAA's. ORU is virtually guaranteed to get the baseball bid out of the Summit. Is it worth giving up the continued NCAA trip to Omaha to join another 1 bid league, and take a down RPI league basketball league. BTW, most the recent basketball bids out of the Southland have been either UTSA, or UTA, both departing for the WAC in 2012.

The Summit is consolidating along the I-29 corridor (ala NCC D-I), and Tulsa is the south boundary of that group. ORU can either be the SW corner of the Summit, or the North border for the Southland.

[FargoBison]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

Really? The schools don't care about the money? I think you are kidding yourself there.

The money it generates doesn't come close to having the tournament in or close to their respective schools. It is great the tournament makes money in SF but if having it there constantly is a problem for other members in the league it is the conference's job to balance things out.

[jackmd]

Re: ORU talking with Southland

The money it generates doesn't come close to having the tournament in or close to their respective schools. It is great the tournament makes money in SF but if having it there constantly is a problem for other members in the league it is the conference's job to balance things out.

Not saying I disagree with this but I doubt it is a major factor in the decision making process. The Summit and its predecessor conferences have been a launching pad for better opportunities for a number of schools. The day SDSU agreed to join is the day I hoped SDSU was looking for a more stable opportunity at the same time. Moving from the GWFC to the MVFC was the first prominent step in that direction. I think its foolish to sit on our laurels and remain satisfied in the SL. I don't know what the best opportunity will be but I use to shake my head when NDSU supporters touted the notion that they would be in the same conference as Iowa State one day. Now, I think that is a real possibility. Not likely, but possible.

The largest and most powerful football programs and their respective institutions are going to continue to shake things up until there are 4 major conferences each with at least 16 schools. That's 64 programs that will compete for the BCS title. After that you'll have DIAA or FCS and then all the lower divisions. Basketball isn't likely to follow the same course because they are such different animals. ORU is positioning itself and keeping options open, something SDSU should be doing as well.