USD vs State rivalry shirts

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

I encourage everyone to give the article a read, as it is very interesting and thought provoking, especially the section about profanity. It is a very gray issue.

I enjoyed this excerpt:

"The level of discourse for adults cannot be reduced to what is fit or proper for children. Similarly, the level of discourse cannot be reduced to what is acceptable to the most sensitive adults. In a mixed audience, there are two possibilities. First, children unavoidably hear or see some “adult” expression and sensitive adults hear or see what offends them. Or, second, we reduce the level of speech at the stadium to what is suitable for a sandbox. Since the latter is impermissible as a matter of free-speech principle, the former is, in some degree, inevitable.

The problem is even more difficult at college arenas, because the intended audience is not families with young children, but the adult eighteen- to twentyyear-old undergraduates who dominate the university community. While families—children of faculty, alumni, and area residents—are an expected part of the audience, they are not the target and thus should not provide the baseline for the appropriate level or manner of fan expression."

Anyone who thinks the target audience for college athletics is the student population loses all credibility IMO.

In marketing and advertising, a target audience, or target group is the primary group of people that something, usually an advertising campaign, is aimed at appealing to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_audience

Do you think the primary group the athletic department is trying to appeal to sits on the lower south or lower north side of Frost arena?

[zooropa]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

The problem is even more difficult at college arenas, because the intended audience is not families with young children, but the adult eighteen- to twentyyear-old undergraduates who dominate the university community.

That's an unfounded assumption. In fact it's contradicted by the measurable fact that students are most often in the minority at sporting events, and frequently a significant minority.

Therefore, the author's conclusion that the 'intended audience' is students is, IMO, faulty.

---

I know many students don't like hearing this, but I'll say it anyway. College athletics--especially revenue sports--are not intended, primarily, as entertainment for students.

[SoDakJack]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

My non-lawyerly guess would be that the "fighting words" doctrine, along with the demonstrated history of unruly behavior at State-U games (both in Brookings and in Vermillion, by both sides, at different times) would make some attempt to control the environment a reasonable and proper response.

You also have to remember that balanced against the First-Amendment lawsuit issue would be taking reasonable and proper steps to ensure public order--to defend against the lawsuit for negligence on the part of the University if some altercation was sparked by a t-shirt--that the University "let somebody in the building with" that somebody thought was particularly offensive.

The concern is NOT to be killjoys of youthfully exhuberent behavior. The concern is to prevent things escalating to the point where whiskey bottles fly out of the stands.

The game isn't "who can wear the most cleverly offensive t-shirt," the game is basketball. All us old farts understand the urge to push the boundaries--we were college-age kids too, once. But in order to push the boundaries, there need to be boundaries against which to push.

I look to none other than local high schools as to their precedents that have been set regarding profane and/or obscene clothing. Those schools are able inform students that what they are wearing is inappropriate for the enviroment and then give them the option to change or turn the shirt inside out. And I believe that SDSU will follow the same suit.

[jackmd]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Upsetting a vocal minority of college students in order to assure a fan-friendly environment for the "donating" crowd will win out every time in today's SDSU world, i.e. the fledgling DI years. That being said, my parents allowed me to attend SDSU games back in the days of "screw the U and Augie too" the bull**** chants in disagreement with a call and everything else that was more acceptable then. Those days were also a time when my uncles openly admitted that they cheered for the Boston Celtics because they had more white guys and women's athletics were considered clearly inferior to men's athletics.

Times have changed. You wear a shirt that isn't deemed appropriate or behave in a way that isn't deemed appropriate you are likely to get removed from the arena. You can than decide if you have any legal ground to stand on. My bet, you don't have any so don't waste everyone's time. Put on a Jackrabbit shirt and show up with a smile on your face. That's my plan.

[Nidaros]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

I have not read the article , but intend too. What our friends from USD need to remember is that that in order for USD to become a full fledged member of NCAA D1 and the Summit League, they have a number of hopps to jump through and have to certified by the NCAA. If student mis behavior gets in the way even with a frivilous law suit, USD could be shown the door by the remaining Summit League members. I am not sure if this kind of behaviour would affect the ceritifcation process so good luck with trouble making and tom foolery, its not the NCC anymore so more is expected of each conference and Division 1 member. Did not USD learn something about UND and their mascot issues?

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

While I admit that I did not read the article carefully, in fact scanning it would be somewhat inaccurate, there are two issues that I would want to study further. In addition, it has been quite some time since I did anything regarding 1st Amend rights, so my recollection of legal principles is shaky at best.

I believe that the Supreme Court has ruled that can create a limited public forum for speech that can have limits on what speech is allowed in the forum. If a member of the public enters such a forum, they do so with the understanding that there are limits on what speech is allowed and by voluntarily entering the forum they agree to abide by those limits. If I recall correctly this involved a televised debate on public television station and that they were allowed to limit the speech of the citizens in the audience. They did not discriminate on view point when allowing distributing tickets, but just because you got a ticket didn't mean you could say what ever you wanted no matter how relevant it was to the election/candidates.

The second issue that I did not see addressed in the article was the issue of your seat is based on the sporting entity granting you a revocable license to use the seat under certain terms and conditions. So I went and looked at my season tickets and the tickets for the Summit tournament. Interestingly, the Summit tickets have many conditions printed in small print on the back of each ticket, including that this ticket is a revocable license (also a bunch of stuff about rescheduling baseball games). Season tickets from SDSU do not have any language regarding this on the tickets. I have absolutely no idea how this affects the issue as the only time I ever dealt with this was my first year property law class and I was so thoroughly confused at the end of class that I prayed and prayed that this was not going to be part of the final.



I hope Prof. Day and/or Davidson never see this post, as they would be shaking their heads in disbelief.

[CatchEmAll]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Great discussion (?).

I'll shed a little light from my experience actually working in game management at SDSU a few years back. 2003, the last USD double header of the year (SDSU hosted the women's regional that year and played USD), there were UPD officers at every entrance. Everyone entering (not just students) was required to open their overcoats -any "offensive" shirts were either taken, or the person was required to turn them inside out on the spot. They were also checking for other "objects" that may be tossed onto the court. Were there some complaints, yep. Did most people understand. Yep. Did anyone get denied admission...only if a foriegn object that could be considered a flying projectile was discovered on their person.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Alot of great points made. I love the rivalry and have always enjoyed the different shirts on both sides. I guess now being a parent and taking young children (full of questions) to a game makes me view things differently these days.

I guess I would have to question the intellegence of anyone wearing the shirt that started this thread. Just rude and pretty much poopy joke humor.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

That said.....I would like to come up w/ a shirt/shirts to sell. I have a friend who owns a company that makes shirts, signs, banners, etc. He did some real nice looking shirts for me for a golf tourney for under $5.

Any ideas would be appreciated. Something tasteful yet a bit "smackish" toward USD or NDSU etc. would be fun.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Something like:

Brookings, South Dakota...home of the Dakota Marker since 2006. (Pic of Dakota Marker)

Then list the scores of the last three SDSU-NDSU games on the back.

$8....who wants one?

[yotemeal]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

I should probably jump in to clarify the purpose of my initial post. My intent was not to advocate on behalf of crude and profane t-shirts, but rather discuss the constitutional limitations on restricting such content, i.e., to what extent is a public university constitutionally permitted to censor t-shirt content of home and/or visiting students at a college sporting event hosted in a public forum? I think one poster’s use of the phrase “common sense law degree” sort of captures the attitudes of most on these types of issues. I would tend to agree. In a perfect world, such profane slogans have no place at events that entertain not only college students, but also many local residents, alumni, and their families. I’m certain a group of level-headed, salt-of-the-earth South Dakotans (which most of us are) would probably agree, for the most part, on what qualifies as “good taste” and what constitutes “bad taste.” That’s easy, but that's neither the question nor the standard. First Amendment analysis (and again, I’m hardly an expert) is much more complicated, involving competing doctrines.
It’s been written by several authors on this forum that crude t-shirts and offensive chants are relics of “the D-II days,” and a higher standard exists at the Division I level. I’m all for embracing the Division I era as a move toward more civil fan behavior. But poor sportsmanship is pushing the extremes of the First Amendment all across the country. Take, for example, rivalry games between West Virginia and Pitt or Maryland and Duke. The chants are obnoxious and the shirts are profane. It ain’t pretty. My point is that First Amendment analysis is the same for NAIA Division II as it is for NCAA Division I. Accordingly, discussing what type of fan behavior would keep USD in the good graces of the Summit League or NCAA is beside the point. In fact, this whole discussion pertains to both SDSU students being denied Frost access for wearing “Screw the U” shirts and USD students similarly excluded for “Jack be Nimble” shirts. The former scenario is more intriguing because I, in my apparently morally bankrupt mind, don’t find “Screw the U” to be all that offensive. I place it on par with aggressive language such as “Go Back to D-II.” Again, I’m not promoting these shirts; I’m just curious what would happen in federal court when the ACLU takes up some students’ claims that their First Amendment rights were violated.
“Screw the U” is not in good taste. But it is my opinion such expression is probably afforded First Amendment protections. Whether such protections extend to the more extreme “Jack be Nimble” example is a tougher question. I’d be willing to research it for a reasonable fee.

[bub94]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Now that we are D-I and the games do draw a lot more families with young kids, I can understand the need for the college to limit the visibility of these shirts from the younger kids. I was never a fan of having someone from SDSU throw something on the court. This is just giving the other team free points. It's fine to have a rivalry, but there is such a thing as taking it too far. Do I have a problem with security asking fans to turn their shirts inside out? Not really. What are the odds the person isn't going the change it back around when he gets in the crowd? Pretty good. Should they hand out t-shirts to fans wearing indecent shirts? Nah. If someone is willing to risk the chance of not getting admitted to the game by wearing one of those shirts, I have no problem with security saying,"Go home." Hope it doesn't get to be a bigger issue than the game itself.

[Nidaros]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Yotemeal has raised some issues that might apply to the future SDSU-USD rivals. These issues are not likely to surface with a game with Oakland as the most fans that come with the team are no more than 30 people, but games NDSU and USD you have a large traveling continuent of fans. This is a topic for law students and legal professionals no doubt, and beyond my sense of reason. Interesting though.

Being the newest member of the Summit, USD admin would be smart to not allow anything at the dome that would embarrass the institution. SDSU had those annoying students ringing cowbells behind the visiting bench during time outs. This was before SDSU found a conference. It was just plain rude, and unexcuseable, and SDSU and NDSU found out that how you treat the vistors was an important part of membership in the Summit. So all this legal stuff is fine and dandy, but if you start off on a rude foot, you are likely end it with a rude tumble.

[Jax]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

I am especially curious about this. Are they going to make kids take off their coats and sweatshirts to reveal t-shirt choice at all of the other games this year?

No, if no one can see it nobody will be offended by it. You can wear a pot leaf shirt with a Swatstika on it; as long is it isn't viewable by everyone else no one will care. (some might I guess, but keep it under wraps and no one knows)

[Jax]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Something like:

Brookings, South Dakota...home of the Dakota Marker since 2006. (Pic of Dakota Marker)

Then list the scores of the last three SDSU-NDSU games on the back.

$8....who wants one?

I do