NCC schools contemplate conference's future

[jackmd]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

As much as SDSU people want to dismiss USD as a legit threat to SDSU in the major sports is as much as they really don't know what is going on within USD right now.  The president Abbott is a USD guy through and through and has and is going to have a vision for USD athletics.  Joel Nielson is a very good AD for the Coyotes and has already turned around alot of the mess that was left by Higgins and those before him.  The basketball team isn't tearing it up but have been getting more consistant, with regional appearances in 3 straight years which hasn't happened for awhile and that included the very good teams they had in the early to mid 90's.  The recruiting has been good for both basketball and football and don't think that SDSU really has that much to do with it, whether D1, D2 or whatever.

Don't think that if USD moves up that they will not be able to compete with SDSU because it is not true.  USD is much better in football and remains solid in basketball which is something SDSU cannot claim.  Being D1 does not majically turn a program around that hasn't made the internal changes to make it so.  If USD moves up there are other sports that they will simply not be able to be very good at and many of those sports if they were to complete with SDSU would get their butts handed to them.  I think the track and field team would probably outdo the Jacks but many of the womens sports such as volleyball and softball are not very good.  Those types of sports may suffer if USD moves up.  The thing about those types of sports is that not many people really care.  They are usually nothing more than morning coffee discussion.  People have to prioritize and will choose basketball and football over the lesser attended sports, which I guess is rather obvious.  

I agree that the AD at USD has made some significant strides forward recently. I have great respect for Abbott and Nielson and I think the head coaching change in FB gives the men at USD 3 great coaches in FB, BB, and track.

As for the level of competition in the upper level of IAA vs the top of DII, I am not qualified to comment but from what I have seen on the field from good DIAA schools like Texas St, Cal-Poly, Georgia Southern, etc.. vs UND, UNO, USD there really is no comparison. Granted, Logan and Berschoener (sp? sorry) are great, but they are the exception not the rule. I don't think either is player of the year at the IAA level. Again, just my opinions.

I look for USD to make an informed decision based on facts and those facts will probably suggest remaining DII. I think there is enough courage at USD to abide by those facts and to continue to study the feasibility of shifting resources towards athletics for a push to DI. I'm just not sure yet what support there will be for that. Time will tell.

[jackmd]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

The kid MJA is referring to is Blake Hoyer. His dad played at SDSU when we were a DII school. Blake was a great RB and LB in high school coached by an SDSU grad Jason Hein. He looked hard at SDSU and we said come on in. Our coaches did not feel he meritted a scholarship, at least not as a freshman. He chose USD and a scholarship. Those are the facts. No speculation here. Not offered a scholy at SDSU, offered at USD and accepted. No regrets from either side.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Some D1AA programs have been D1AA forever but that doesn't necessarily make them a good program. Many established D1AA programs wouldn't beat the top D2 programs on a consistant basis and those programs have all D1AA recruited athletes. As I said before if a D1AA recruits an athlete they are D1AA by title but that doesn't mean the school that recruited them is better at assessing talent then D2 schools. Talent is just a bi product of a good overall program. It all starts with coaching first and then goes down to the players after that. The players that go to a particular school may very well develop differently depending on who is their mentor.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

If talent is a bi product of coaching, JJ Redick would be 10 times the player that LeBron James is. Coaching plays a large part in development of a player at the college level, but talent is the most important building block towards a players future as a successful athlete. No matter how well you're coached, without talent you're not going to see the field.

Your point on 1AA schools is well taken, though. There are many 1AA schools out there that would have a hard time competing in the powerhouse times of the NCC. However, we're spoiled with D2 talent in our area and have been for years. There are a ton of D2 teams out there who would barely get a win in the DIII Wisconsin college system. Making those points does not change the fact that the overall talent and depth in 1AA is better than in D2. Are there athletes in D2 that could be 1AA or even D1? Sure. I played with several of them. Are there 1AA athletes that would be better served in a D2 environment? Of course. However, the vast majority of players in 1AA are more talented than the majority of players in D2.

Recruiting plays a large role in college athletics for a reason. My point all along is USD has seen an increase in recruiting success as a result of having more athletes to choose from thanks to SDSU and NDSU looking elsewhere. Blake Hoyer would not have been a USD football player had SDSU not been 1AA. He is not the only example of that situation. Whether USD likes it or not, they are seeing an increase in quality SD athletes merely because there is no where else to go. That has nothing to do with the quality of either team, team speed, wins or losses. It is merely a mathematical equation. Similar to a fishing story. There is one lake and 4 people are fishing at the lake. The top 3 fishermen leave the lake and move to a bigger lake with occasionally dropping a line in the old lake. The last fisherman is going to see more bites merely because there is less competition. USD is that last fisherman (and Augie to a lesser extent). Again, look at the last 10 years of recruits and who USD was recruiting compared to SDSU if you don't believe me.

[jackrabbit1979]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

One thing that can't be ignored no mattter what you say about recruiting is that the Coyote Football program has taken major strides forward while SDSU has really done nothing to improve.  They are no better or no worse.  They have the same coach and basically the same talent level they had 3 years ago.  

It's rather ignorant to say that the SDSU program hasn't improved over the last three years as you have nothing to base your argument off.  To think that we have competed at the same level, hovering right above .500, and doing so against an overall tougher schedule than what we did in the days of D2 shows improvement in itself.  Yes we have had lower level schools on our schedule and we have beaten all of them soundly just like we should have.  You can go back to our first transitional year when we played winona and NWMS at home and defeated both of them in convincing fashion, both were at the time considered top D2 programs and both went on to make the D2 playoffs if i remember correctly.  

Half of the battle in having a successful football season is surviving the season itself.  A lot of teams (not as talented ones included) would be great if they went through a season injury and setback free.  To me the major differences in D2 and D1AA is that every week you play a team that is able to defeat you and has athletes that are equal to what you have.  The wear and tear on the team through injuries, travel, and mental exhaustion is no doubt greater. There are no letdowns like upper iowa or crookston.  Even when SDSU scheduled cupcakes like Wisc-Lacrosse, or Rolla, they are still teams that could defeat many of the weaker division 2 programs in the area.  To see that SDSU has had three full seasons where they have posted decent records against the week in and week out level of competition that D1AA brings,  shows that Coach Stig and the program has made great strides.  Nevermind the fact that we were still starting D2 recruited players, travelling like never seen before, and working with 1/3 less scholarships than many of the teams we played.

BTW, If USD does make the jump to D1AA, you better hope that Coach Stig is still at SDSU.  Not taking anything away from Stig and his abilities, or his success as a great person and mentor, but the SDSU job would most likely be coveted by a lot of very talented coaches.  This could include your new hero Ed Meierkort as he has ties to SDSU as an alum.  Either way, my support is with Coach Stig, he is doing a great job and I look forward to the next few years as we are fully funded and the stadium renovation projects start.

[jackrabit1]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

What are some of the renovations planned? I figure new locker rooms have to be high on the priority list, but what are some of the other plans they have in store?

[thebluehatman]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

i know they have to enclose the north and east sides in permanent seating. and redo the locker rooms not sure what other renovations have to be done.

[jackrabbit1979]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

I have nothing against Stig but if the Yotes move up to D1AA and end up renewing the rivalry with SDSU in about 3 or 4 years I hope that Stig is still your coach.  I hope so because he is a solid but not spectacular coach.  He will have the Jacks at or around .500 like they have been for the most part of 40 years.  

 

One last point, Coach Stig has basically dominated the USD football program since he took over the helm at SDSU. As much as you want to attribute that to USD's futility, some of the credit has to go the success that Coach Stig has had. I don't know if i would want to continue to compete against somebody who has an amazing track record against your team.

[jackmd]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Your point on 1AA schools is well taken, though.  There are many 1AA schools out there that would have a hard time competing in the powerhouse times of the NCC.  However, we're spoiled with D2 talent in our area and have been for years.  There are a ton of D2 teams out there who would barely get a win in the DIII Wisconsin college system.  Making those points does not change the fact that the overall talent and depth in 1AA is better than in D2.  Are there athletes in D2 that could be 1AA or even D1?  Sure.  I played with several of them.  Are there 1AA athletes that would be better served in a D2 environment?  Of course.  However, the vast majority of players in 1AA are more talented than the majority of players in D2.

My current neighbor in Yankton is a former UW-Stevens Point Football player and grad. He was recruited by several NCC schools and chose to remain in state. He is convinced that the talent present in the middle of the pack NCC teams in no way exceeded the talent in the WIAC.

USD has had 2 seasons with nice records both ending with the last regular season game. Only 3 years ago the yotes lost to a WIAC team and the year before that had 3 wins (2 in OT). Since then NDSU, UNC, and SDSU have left the ranks of DII and now USD is suddenly the 3rd best team in the NCC instead of the 6th best team.

Each person sees things a little differently. Obviously allegiance to an institution is the major factor in that. The NCC was a nice DII conference with a reputation built on the backs of SDSU, NDSU, and UND. Again, thats a fact that you can try to dispute but that you can't deny.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Being 3rd or 4th best in the "NCC Lite" is nothing to boast about!

You have to count UNC in that mix of strong teams leaving, they have a couple of titles in recent memory.

Now that USD is the only remaining school with a dome left, they should be able to dominate the "NCC Lite". The Dome is a recruiting tool isn't?

Good luck again to the 'Yotes. They are in a really bad spot!!!

SUPERBUNNY

[jackmd]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Being 3rd or 4th best in the "NCC Lite" is nothing to boast about!  

You have to count UNC in that mix of strong teams leaving, they have a couple of titles in recent memory.

SUPERBUNNY

I hesitate to say that the reputation of the NCC was bolstered that much by the strong but short run by UNC football. Plus, they were only a league member for a fraction of the time as compared to SDSU, NDSU and UND.

[CatchEmAll]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

I hesitate to say that the reputation of the NCC was bolstered that much by the strong but short run by UNC football.  Plus, they were only a league member for a fraction of the time as compared to SDSU, NDSU and UND.

Overall, UNC's run may not have factored much. But in DII football, when the 90's were basically dominated by the NCC, UNC's title run was big news nationally in solidifying the argument that the NCC was more than the two ND schools.  UNC had a good decade, but you're right, overall their impact on the conference was minimal.

Coyote_Fan is quite the homer (as we all are as well I guess). How can he seriously argue that other than the two big guns on last year's team that USD in any way compares to the IAA teams we have played. We all know there is room for growth in our program, and the increased scholarships will help over the next couple of years. But realistically, if we're not up to 57 scholarships until 2008, the impact of being able to recruit more/better players won't be felt until 2010-11 when those players are in their second and third year. Other than the elite DI programs, freshmen and sophmores rarely make a big enough impact to account for any number of wins at our level.  But, when you get a larger group of good players together, like we will have in a few years, the impact will be felt in the W column.

My personal opinion on the remaining NCC schools is that other than UND they should all stay DII. The Minnesota schools are of the right mind set, be good at what you do and try not to compete with the mother ship.  UNO has it's own problems that will keep it DII. Augie could make the move with the oft discussed football drop or non-scholarship route. USD should follow the Minnesota schools example and try not to compete with the mother ship known as SDSU. With any luck, USD might get asked to join the NSIC with the Minnesota schools. I think it would be funny as hell though if the NSIC thumbed it's nose at USD and said thanks, but no thanks. Good luck with the RMAC.

[NightHawk78]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

My personal opinion on the remaining NCC schools is that other than UND they should all stay DII. The Minnesota schools are of the right mind set, be good at what you do and try not to compete with the mother ship. UNO has it's own problems that will keep it DII. Augie could make the move with the oft discussed football drop or non-scholarship route. USD should follow the Minnesota schools example and try not to compete with the mother ship known as SDSU. With any luck, USD might get asked to join the NSIC with the Minnesota schools. I think it would be funny as hell though if the NSIC thumbed it's nose at USD and said thanks, but no thanks. Good luck with the RMAC.

This thread is going to end up in the Samck section before the night is over. : : :

Any backer of the University of Serious Depression (aka USD) would be outraged to hear that SDSU is the "mother ship." After all, they like to refer to themselves as "THE University." I would agree with the assessment that USD may have trouble getting into the NSIC. Why, one might ask?
1) USD is much larger and more prominent than the typically NSIC school.
2) USD would not be a fan of cutting FB schollies to fit in; the MN schools probably wouldn't care if push came to shove.
3) Do you think Northern would really want USD in their conference? Do you think USD would want to be in the same conference as Northern?
4) There may not be room in the NSIC if the NCC goes under. Even IF Crookston bails, there would likely be only one to three openings in the NSIC, assuming that the conference would likely max itself at 10 or 12 members. Any schools from MN would likely get precedent since a majority of the NSIC schools are in MN.

My prediction, which I've mostly posted elsewhere on this board before:
UNO goes to the MIAA.
Augie drops schollies in FB and goes D-1.
UMD, St. Cloud, and Mankato beg for entry into the NSIC. A 12-team NSIC may eventually split into two if several area NAIA or D-3 schools move to D-2.
Northern works behind-the-scenes to block USD from ever joining the NSIC.
USD bets the house (and the Dakota Dump) as it launches a statewide campaign begging for alumni and legislative support to go D-1.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

I realise good and well that the NCC is nowhere near the conference as it was 5 years ago. That is obvious no argument here. Is USD on top of the NCC right now just because of the NCC defections. I wouldn't necessarily say so. Like I said before UND and UNO didn't suddenly become terrible football programs since UNC, NDSU and SDSU left. Actually they were both at the top of the NCC when those teams were still part of the league. USD was never able to seriously compete with either UND or UNO at that time. That is no longer true so wouldn't it be logical that USD would also play NDSU, UND and SDSU much the same as they are currently playing UNO and UND.

I do agree that SDSU is playing the tougher schedule and that makes a huge difference. If USD was playing that same schedule I think it would be fair to that they would probably be able to post a somewhat similar type record. They wouldn't win on the road but based on the way they destroyed UNO and UND to a point they would very likely have good success against Great West teams at home as well. I am not going to ignore that SDSU played alot of tough games but you also have to acknowledge what USD did to some good teams as well.

[Haldersham]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Just because SDSU has "D1" athletes and USD has "D2" athletes doesn't mean that those division 1 athletes are the better athletes.  For skilled position players USD was most likely more talented than SDSU was.  Many Jacks fan notice the speed of D1AA being alot faster, but maybe that is because SDSU just had a slow team.  If you watched USD play you would think their skilled players were every bit as fast as the athletes from UC Davis, Poly etc.  The difference between D2 and D1AA football is not that great.  The top 10 teams of D2 are probably better than at least half the D1AA schools.  USD was either in the top 10 or on the cusp of it.  Athletes are athletes.  Classifying them by divison means nothing other than a title.  I doubt SDSU had a runningback or quarterback that were as good as what USD had.  In that instance the D2 athlete was the better athlete.  USD and SDSU do recruit a different player, problem is for Jacks fans is that the better recruits are now going to the U.  

Hmmm if there is no difference or little difference between D1AA and D2, why even consider D1 as a reclassification. It seems the real answer would be to stay D2 and save money. Why invest in more scholarships, if the end result would be no different from staying D2. I think USD could save a lot of bucks by staying D2. ;D Coyote Fan's reaction >