Why USD CAN go DI.

[filbert]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Filbert has a much better grasp on statistics than I, but think I see on flaw in the numbers. The vast majority of the population in the 5-state region is on the eastern edge of MN & IA, with population density steadily declining as you move further into the other states. While borders do not absolutely limit support, they do influence where people will go to school and that determines the number of alumni. I know the MN has reciprocity with SD, but when I left USD 5 years ago, IA did not, however I believe there is now a lower tuition rate for IA residents, if not full reciprocity. In short, I have to give Filbert a great deal of credit for the research, but IMHO, the general population numbers are not vaild basis for determining potential support.

I'll give you that lumping the entire five-state area is cheating a bit. On the other hand, there aren't any Minnesota schools lining up to go D-I, and there's no particular reason why the U of M shouldn't face competition for the college sports dollar even in the Twin Cities metro market. NDSU already markets somewhat up there (Tim Miles appears regularly on TC radio talk shows, for instance).

I figured since this board represents SD's premier research university, I'd see what I could come up with that meets the title of this thread. Unfortunately, I had to fudge things a bit in order to make it work. :-)

OK, back to it . . .

I think the peer-institution argument is the best one. It's certainly the easiest to make.

In order to get serious about the market size issue, you have to do a lot of calculation of population within 50 to 100 miles of Vermillion that I'm frankly too lazy to do. Since not just total market size but potential market share is the key statistic, you'd also need to actually do some polling of those markets (I'd look at the Sioux Falls and the Sioux City Nielsen TV markets for USD) to determine both current market share for college sports as well as receptivity to a D-I move by USD. I'm way, way too lazy to do any of that, even if someone offered me money to do it.

I'm certainly not convinced that South Dakota can support two D-I programs, but if you add in the adjacent areas of Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota, you quickly get close to Montana's population, which does support both Montana and Montana State.

To all you USD lurkers . . . no charge for the consulting help

[tony]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

I think they will go D-1, but the boldest move for USD would actually be a move to D-3 as they could shed themselves of the "burden" of funding athletic scholarships and sell this move to the general public by stating that USD's mission is to educate SD's "best and brightest" and to develop "the future leaders of SD." Instead of trying to raise money for athletic scholarships, USD could make the push for scholarship money for all USD students. IMHO, I think staying in D-2 is the worst decision that USD could make.

I think there is another option: Go DI and play non-scholarship football. That way, they could go DI for the same amount of money that DII is costing them (maybe less). It opens up another conference possibilities too. If it turns out that a conference is interested but only if they play scholarship football, then they could ramp up the FB again.

[Yote53]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

[quote author=1stRowFANatic link=1150320172/135#148 date=1158629248]Filbert has a much better grasp on statistics than I, but think I see on flaw in the numbers. The vast majority of the population in the 5-state region is on the eastern edge of MN & IA, with population density steadily declining as you move further into the other states. While borders do not absolutely limit support, they do influence where people will go to school and that determines the number of alumni. I know the MN has reciprocity with SD, but when I left USD 5 years ago, IA did not, however I believe there is now a lower tuition rate for IA residents, if not full reciprocity. In short, I have to give Filbert a great deal of credit for the research, but IMHO, the general population numbers are not vaild basis for determining potential support.

I'll give you that lumping the entire five-state area is cheating a bit.  On the other hand, there aren't any Minnesota schools lining up to go D-I, and there's no particular reason why the U of M shouldn't face competition for the college sports dollar even in the Twin Cities metro market.  NDSU already markets somewhat up there (Tim Miles appears regularly on TC radio talk shows, for instance).

I figured since this board represents SD's premier research university, I'd see what I could come up with that meets the title of this thread.  Unfortunately, I had to fudge things a bit in order to make it work.  :-)

OK, back to it . . .

I think the peer-institution argument is the best one.  It's certainly the easiest to make.

In order to get serious about the market size issue, you have to do a lot of calculation of population within 50 to 100 miles of Vermillion that I'm frankly too lazy to do.  Since not just total market size but potential market share is the key statistic, you'd also need to actually do some polling of those markets (I'd look at the Sioux Falls and the Sioux City Nielsen TV markets for USD) to determine both current market share for college sports as well as receptivity to a D-I move by USD.  I'm way, way too lazy to do any of that, even if someone offered me money to do it.

I'm certainly not convinced that South Dakota can support two D-I programs, but if you add in the adjacent areas of Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota, you quickly get close to Montana's population, which does support both Montana and Montana State.

To all you USD lurkers . . . no charge for the consulting help  [/quote]

Sioux City, IA has a metro population of approx 125,000. Yankton, about 25 miles away, is in the 20,000's I believe, and Sioux Falls, well, there is strong competition for the sports dollar there with Augie & USF in town and SDSU just up the road trying to pull from that market. There is a good size alumni base for USD in Sioux Falls though. I would have to say that the SIoux City metro area is ripe for the pickings. Both Mside and Briar Cliff are here, but they are NAIA, and Sioux City (and NW Iowa to a lesser extent) suffers from an identity crisis of being the city that no state in the 3 state region wants to claim (if you've lived there you would understand this). A D1 university marketing hard in Sioux City could have pretty decent success in claiming this market. The Sioux City Journal has been supportive of USD and taken notice to its recent success, but more could be done as far as coverage than the current level.

I think your statistical analysis is correct when you say that another D1 program could be supported. I will also add that, solely based on geographic location, USD is better suited than SDSU. Brookings is larger than Verm, but Verm is located closer to more populated markets. How that can be used successfully is anybody's guess.

[West_River_Jack]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

I used to live on the Iowa side of the border a few miles up the road from Sioux City.  I have to concur with the identity crisis comment . . . at least historically since it was over 20 years ago that I lived there.  I saw very little unified support for either Morningside or Briar Cliff.  That was back in the days when Morningside was still in the NCC.  However, at that time nobody on the Iowa side of the border ever seemed to notice USD either.  In fact, a lot of people referred to South Dakota as just Dakota.  Another identity crisis perhaps?  Everbody was nuts about the Hawkeyes.  There was very little mention of Iowa State University.  I don't know how much has changed, but if it is the same now as it was then there should be possibilities of support from Iowa.  But it might take a lot of work because of the widespread support  for the Hawkeyes.

[Yote53]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

South Dakota has a lot more identity in Sioux City now than the state did 20 years ago. 20 years ago it was basically that place you went to across the river to play video lottery in N Sioux City or go to the dogtrack. Now, since Dakota Dunes and the McCook Lake area has been developed, and many of SC's residents crossed the river daily to work at Gateway Computers, South Dakota is in the minds of people in SC.

People are still Hawkeye crazy, Iowa State has made inroads, Nebraska was very strong here but has since lost a lot of following. It is possible to get the support, there are a lot more USD grads down here than there used to be too. I can see it happening. you don't need to have the suppport of the whole town, if you could draw an additional 5,000 fans from the area to the south of Verm for a football home game that would do it. Far less travel for a D1 game than Iowa City, Ames, or Lincoln. Though the experience isn't the same, tix are available unlike IaCity or Lincoln where finding tix is tough.

[jackmd]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

The local paper, Yankton P & D, came out in support of a USD move to DI in their editorial today. Only a few years ago the came out against SDSU's move to DI and in favor of USD's decision to stay DII. What the hell is going on at these newspapers?

They quote Abbot and his desire to see 11,000 students at USD all with ACT scores of 24 or above. Can you say pipe dream? What are these dudes smoking? As it stands right now, the best, brightest and most South Dakota high school students go to SDSU by far. Why would that change with a struggling DI athletic program at USD? How do they go from a desire to be a moderate sized liberal arts university with selective admission criteria and an "Ivy-league" feel to 11,000 students and DI affiliation without a conference?

I realize it may be all but official but a DI move for USD is far from a solid decision. Not to mention the loss of respect for the local paper and their waffling job. Its really about fronting for USD down here. Its sickening to say the least.

[NightHawk78]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

I think that all of the naysayers that said SDSU would fail in D-1 now have egg on their face since SDSU received the Mid-Con invite, have been competitive in football, and excelled in women's basketball. Between D-1 and the emerging research campus, it seems to me that USD is deathly afraid of being completely overshadowed by SDSU. In addition, UND is off to D-1 and Augie is quite serious about going there. Who would USD have left for a rivalry?

The Yankton paper is Vermillion's daily paper. They have a vested interest in the future of USD and now have seemed to change face on the issue. Either that, or they already now that USD is going to move up to D-1 and want to help build support for the inevitable announcement.

[EQguy]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

There was a USD student that called in to Craig and Mike's show yesterday. Besides calling SDSU a couple of names and commenting on how the school and fb team is excited about playing a common opponent to SDSU, Craig asked him his opinion about the D-I move. His justification went something like this:

When SDSU announced the D-I move USD said they were going to focus on increasing academics at the U. Since then there is a new med school and so they have accomplished that mission. Now its time to move on and be D-I in athletics too.

[Ozark_Jack]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

There are no guarantees that und will actually go D1. They have a one year "self imposed" probationary/research year for the purpose of backing out if they cant find the funds or change their minds. I would say that usd will not make this move, You need fan support-usd does not, you need money-usd doesnt have any. and you need a complete commitment from the university to make the D1 move-usd definetly does not have this. When I was up in Brookings for the Mid Con meetings awhile back. They wanted to find out through 100's of interviews with groups and individuals, what our commitment level was. and they made it known at the end of the visit they would know if our heart was really behind the D1 move. usd has NO passion for this move. and there isnt a confrence in the country that doesnt know it!!!
"Trying" to keep up with SDSU is not a legitimate reason to move D1. usd has lost the arms race, they need to be the best D2 school they can be - and just be happy about it.

[90Jackrabbit]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

One political blogger thinks USD will have a battle with the legislature with thier strategic plan to grow the University and move to Division I at the same time.

Now, this might not be a tremendous expense in and of itself. But it also comes on the heels of USD's announcement of a strategic plan to build itself into an elitist... er, sorry. ..to build itself into an "elite institution:"



Nine months after university officials began receiving departmental requests for the strategic plan, President James Abbott released a finalized version last Thursday.

The plan outlines university goals regarding academics, research, enrollment, funding, organizational effectiveness and diversity at USD. It is set to be integrated between 2007 and 2012, but Abbott said its success will depend on student and faculty support.

"Is this what the best small public flagship university in the country would do? In every decision we make, we should be considering that," Abbott said.

Abbott said that the most immediate changes students will see will be in construction of the new student center, Business School and School of Medicine. Although not listed specifically in the plan, he said these facilities will help with continued education and recruitment.

"Students are always pleased with new and updated facilities, but I hope they are impressed with strengthening academics," Abbott said.

Other topics he highlighted included raising admission standards, revamping the IdEA program and initializing the Multicultural Center.
Read that all here. Now, according to the strategic plan they want to do such things on paper as:


Create an honors college,
Double the number of U.Discover Undergraduate Research Scholarships,

Fully implement the recently approved doctoral programs: Computational Science and Statistics (PhD), MD/PhD, Biomedical Engineering (PhD), Doctorate of Audiology (AuD), and Doctorate of Physical Therapy (DPT),
Develop new doctoral-level programs from within these candidate areas: Ecological & Evolutionary Informatics, Materials Chemistry, Political Science, Educational Leadership, Music History, School Psychology, and Occupational Therapy.
Provide library services, and access to information at a level consistent with Carnegie Research Universities with High Research Activity.
Develop a Multicultural Center that supports and celebrates diversity of all types, while strengthening the programming at the Native American Cultural Center.
Determine which undergraduate programs are to be offered at distance locations and develop those programs for distance delivery.
Create and develop the Office of Enrollment Management with the market research and management capability to build student enrollment.
Implement a prospect management recruiting process that increases state-support enrollment.
Identify and prioritize what facility and infrastructure improvements are needed to accomplish the strategic plan goals.
Develop a landscape and grounds master plan that incorporates the higher design expectations of today's constituents with a mandate for low-maintenance requirements.
And you can read all of this (and more) here. The biggest thing I see? That little section in this that notes "Identify and prioritize what facility and infrastructure improvements are needed to accomplish the strategic plan goals."

In other words, they're going to be going to the well of taxpayer funds for all of this, at the same time they are attempting to go into Division I sports.

I'd argue that when SDSU did it, they adopted a different tactic of laying low on the additional funding for the University. Here, USD is taking the opposite approach by going whole hog with a plethora of new programs.

My thoughts? Bad move. This next legislature is going to be a vastly different place and if things track as they are expected, they are arguably going to be holding a tighter grip on government's pocketbook.

With the Board of Regents showing up with requests for a nearly doubled salary expenditure for institution presidents, and USD wanting to be the world leader in everything, expect the tight-fisted Appropriations committees to put a foot down.

Read more here: http://dakotawarcollege.blogspot.com...e-session.html

[CatchEmAll]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

they need to be the best D2 school they can be.

This statement sums up what needs to happen at USD IMO. I know many said that about SDSU too, but we've already made the move and committed to the mission. SDSU seems more suited to the growth mode that USD has been bringing up recently. Even though I have said I believe USD is going to announce a DI move, I still think that for them, if they can become a premier DII athletic program nationally it would be of a bigger benefit then moving to DI. Just my thoughts.

[Haldersham]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

There is a lot hanging on people voting on Nov 4th in South Dakota. David Kranz mentions in his column that the Demo's have 90 candidates for the legislature. Its beginning to look not like Christmas but a two party system. Some of these races could be close. The reference the blogger made to a new legislature could prove correctly and how that affects USD and SDSU will be interesting.
I don't know how many SDSU alums are in the races but we need all the help we can get in Pierre.

If there was cry and hue about SDSU and their move to D1 and concerns about the legislature having to pick up the failed pieces of SDSU move, will these same concerns surface again, when Jim Abbott comes with hat in hand?

BTW, I get the opportunty to cast a vote against Mr Greenfield from Desmet. He is the guy that spearheaded the budget cut against South Dakota Pubic Broadcasting of 500,000 bucks and it was restored after reaction from the public. This budget cut would have impacted USD more than SDSU since some one in the political system thought it was a good idea to move most of PBS to Verminland from Brookings.

As far  as USD and D1, its still an issue to unfold, and nothing wrong with expressing thoughts about it all. The thought of moving the Law and Med schools to Sioux Falls has to be very threating.

I am thankful I am SDSU grad.

[EQguy]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

The thought of moving the Law and Med schools to Sioux Falls has to be very threating.

I am thankful I am SDSU grad.

I agree with the sentiment Haldersham.

My concern lies in that if they move the law and med schools what happens to the Nursing and Pharm program? I know we don't stand to lose as much as they do in this transfer but we still stand to lose.

[jackrabbit1979]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

The thought of moving the Law and Med schools to Sioux Falls has to be very threating.  

I am thankful I am SDSU grad.

I agree with the sentiment Haldersham.  

My concern lies in that if they move the law and med schools what happens to the Nursing and Pharm program?  I know we don't stand to lose as much as they do in this transfer but we still stand to lose.

I think we would stand to lose more if that fateful day ever happens. The Law and Med school doesn't effect undergraduate numbers, the bread and butter of any university, as much as our nursing and pharmacy programs do.

[valpotx]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

[quote author=eqguy link=1150320172/150#162 date=1159536409]

The thought of moving the Law and Med schools to Sioux Falls has to be very threating.  

I am thankful I am SDSU grad.

I agree with the sentiment Haldersham.

My concern lies in that if they move the law and med schools what happens to the Nursing and Pharm program?  I know we don't stand to lose as much as they do in this transfer but we still stand to lose.

 

Does all the animosity between SDSU & USD stem from the fact that SD only has 2 "large" schools?  I live in the Dallas-Ft. Worth, TX (duh) area, and there is nowhere near the hatred for other Texas schools throughout the state (UT, A&M, Tech, Rice, Houston, TCU, UTEP, Baylor, etc).  Don't get me wrong, there are huge sports rivalries, but it does not go to the other side of the schools like it seems to within SD (academics, etc).