Joe Paterno Passes

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I just want to reinforce this. People here and all over the internet and media are throwing around the term "lack of institutional control" in regards to Penn State and the NCAA. But there's a flaw with this. The lack of control punishment comes after a violation has occurred. Since there probably weren't any NCAA rules broken in this case, there isn't a lack of control in regards to the NCAA. On the criminal side, there was a huge lack of institutional control in regards to the State of Pennsylvania and maybe the federal courts.Here's the problem: The NCAA can't make up rules after-the-fact. If they come down hard on Penn State, PSU might have grounds to sue. A similar situation happened during the UND nickname case. When the NCAA first instituted their nickname policy, they actually violated their own bylaws due to the method they used. That was a key part of the UND lawsuit. As the lawsuit progressed, the NCAA membership amended their bylaws to allow the executive committee to make decisions like the nickname policy, and then that committee redid the policy. The settlement happened shortly after because the ND AG and the others working on the case realized that even if they won the case(good chance), the change in the bylaws meant that the reenacted policy was legal and a second lawsuit would fail. In short, it wasn't legal the first time, but it was legal the second.In this case, it appears nothing done at PSU was against NCAA rules(as evil as the abuse was). The NCAA could amend their bylaws in the future to allow punishments, but that can't be retroactively applied in this case. But you can be sure that many people at the NCAA are poring over every single bylaw to see if something can be made to fit. Just don't be surprised in the end if the NCAA ends up saying their hands are tied and they leave it up to the courts and state legislature.NCAA definition of lack of institutional control: http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

Thank you!!! This is what I've been trying to say for I don't know how long. You just explained in more depth. Honestly, if the NCAA does punish Penn State, that would be bad as that means NCAA can make up rules as they go and it will start a wildfire on what the NCAA can do.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

If it deals with student-athletes than yes you would be correct, but since it doesn't it doesn't constitute lack of institutional control. It's not that difficult. As rules defined, that it was what the basics of it is. And I'm saying that they need to break an actual NCAA rule to punish them with a death penalty. Penn state will feel the effects of it before its said and done but people need to think rationally not emotionally.

I just want to reinforce this. People here and all over the internet and media are throwing around the term "lack of institutional control" in regards to Penn State and the NCAA. But there's a flaw with this. The lack of control punishment comes after a violation has occurred. Since there probably weren't any NCAA rules broken in this case, there isn't a lack of control in regards to the NCAA. On the criminal side, there was a huge lack of institutional control in regards to the State of Pennsylvania and maybe the federal courts.

Here's the problem: The NCAA can't make up rules after-the-fact. If they come down hard on Penn State, PSU might have grounds to sue. A similar situation happened during the UND nickname case. When the NCAA first instituted their nickname policy, they actually violated their own bylaws due to the method they used. That was a key part of the UND lawsuit. As the lawsuit progressed, the NCAA membership amended their bylaws to allow the executive committee to make decisions like the nickname policy, and then that committee redid the policy. The settlement happened shortly after because the ND AG and the others working on the case realized that even if they won the case(good chance), the change in the bylaws meant that the reenacted policy was legal and a second lawsuit would fail. In short, it wasn't legal the first time, but it was legal the second.

In this case, it appears nothing done at PSU was against NCAA rules(as evil as the abuse was). The NCAA could amend their bylaws in the future to allow punishments, but that can't be retroactively applied in this case. But you can be sure that many people at the NCAA are poring over every single bylaw to see if something can be made to fit. Just don't be surprised in the end if the NCAA ends up saying their hands are tied and they leave it up to the courts and state legislature.


NCAA definition of lack of institutional control: http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I've read back a few posts and I guess this has already been hashed over.One thing i must state however ,is the term "lack of institutional control".To me, it simply means no one "IN A position of authority took charge of the incident to minimize the damage,or there weren't proper guidlines or rules in place by upper eschelon (sp?) university officials to handle the situation properly.For example,once the acquisition was presented,it should have been mandated to notify the authorities to let them investigate,instead of minimizing the damage themselves(which led to the cover up?)This is what allows "a culure of reverence" with a sports program to exist and what allows people who have the power to cover things up the opportunity to do so.

If it deals with student-athletes than yes you would be correct, but since it doesn't it doesn't constitute lack of institutional control. It's not that difficult. As rules defined, that it was what the basics of it is. And I'm saying that they need to break an actual NCAA rule to punish them with a death penalty. Penn state will feel the effects of it before its said and done but people need to think rationally not emotionally.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

According to NFL reporter and PSU grad Kimberly Jones tweeted that the statue is coming down this weekend.

https://twitter.com/KimJonesSports/s...31763457261568

[jackdaniel]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I've read back a few posts and I guess this has already been hashed over.One thing i must state however ,is the term "lack of institutional control".To me, it simply means no one "IN A position of authority took charge of the incident to minimize the damage,or there weren't proper guidlines or rules in place by upper eschelon (sp?) university officials to handle the situation properly.For example,once the acquisition was presented,it should have been mandated to notify the authorities to let them investigate,instead of minimizing the damage themselves(which led to the cover up?)This is what allows "a culure of reverence" with a sports program to exist and what allows people who have the power to cover things up the opportunity to do so.

[jackdaniel]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I know I watched it and heard about it, but he had to say it, and to be honest I don't see a death penalty being justified at all. Just because he won't take anything off the table, doesn't mean he can or should punish Penn State. They will be overstepping their boundaries.

There are "boundaries " in place to protect a University, who through lack of institutional control,allow a pedophile to run loose on campus victimizing young boys(using the athletic dept, as in football tickets, as an enticement),from receiving a just punishment from the NCAA in hopes of deterring things like this from ever happening again?I didn't know this.

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

A few days ago, the NCAA President said he wouldn't take anything off the table: http://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-...n-state-2012-7

I know I watched it and heard about it, but he had to say it, and to be honest I don't see a death penalty being justified at all. Just because he won't take anything off the table, doesn't mean he can or should punish Penn State. They will be overstepping their boundaries.

[jack power]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

HAHA. You need to relook up things. It has already been determined that there was NO "lack of institutional control" and the NCAA said they will look into further, because the fact of the matter is, they didn't break any NCAA rules, so how can they punish them!?! Once again, this did not involve nor affect any student-athletes therefore it can not be punishment for "lack on institutional control"

A few days ago, the NCAA President said he wouldn't take anything off the table: http://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-...n-state-2012-7

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

You need to look up the NCAA by-laws on 'lack of institutional control'.

HAHA. You need to relook up things. It has already been determined that there was NO "lack of institutional control" and the NCAA said they will look into further, because the fact of the matter is, they didn't break any NCAA rules, so how can they punish them!?! Once again, this did not involve nor affect any student-athletes therefore it can not be punishment for "lack on institutional control"

[jack power]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

So what you are saying is that is that because of the actions of a few people, people should lose money, their jobs?? This isn't just football we are talking about, this is people's. It would not only affect the football program, it will affect the academics portion, the whole town of State College, to possibly even a part of PA itself. This isn't just a football punishment, its a punishment that will affect the people. Also, the NCAA shouldn't be able to punish them because its not what the NCAA is suppose to punish for, it will set new precedent on what to punish programs and athletes. Where does it stop? Mandatory games missed for an arrest of a student-athlete, loss of scholarships if so many arrests occur, probation, firing coaches?? This will set a new precedent on what you can punish a school for, and for how much people complain about how many rules the NCAA has, this will only increase their power. This is just as bad as Big 10 firing coaches because it is overstepping their boundaries, and the NCAA would have too much power. This also will affect student-athletes of football, which had nothing to do it and it really involved 4 ppl and probably the BOT. In most peoples minds and in high school recruits parents minds, they have already had the death penalty and they will pay for it in in lawsuits and being charged with crimes. By no means do I condone the act by Sandusky or the act of the other individuals involved, but we have to think rationally not emotionally and it will create even more power for the NCAA. Basically, the NCAA can't nor should they be able to punish Penn State. They DID NOT BREAK ANY NCAA RULES!!

You need to look up the NCAA by-laws on 'lack of institutional control'.

[jack power]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I posted this a few days ago on ESPN.com...

Not bad. One idea i had was to let them play for 2 years but only road games. That way,it doesn't completely screw up the Big 10 schools. The teams in their non-conference schedule have the option of Penn State coming to their place or receiving the guarantee money .

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

If players, restaurants, motels, etc suffer because of sanctions placed on Penn State by the NCAA, they should direct their blame at those responsible for the actions resulting in the sanctions rather than the NCAA.

So what you are saying is that is that because of the actions of a few people, people should lose money, their jobs?? This isn't just football we are talking about, this is people's. It would not only affect the football program, it will affect the academics portion, the whole town of State College, to possibly even a part of PA itself. This isn't just a football punishment, its a punishment that will affect the people. Also, the NCAA shouldn't be able to punish them because its not what the NCAA is suppose to punish for, it will set new precedent on what to punish programs and athletes. Where does it stop? Mandatory games missed for an arrest of a student-athlete, loss of scholarships if so many arrests occur, probation, firing coaches?? This will set a new precedent on what you can punish a school for, and for how much people complain about how many rules the NCAA has, this will only increase their power. This is just as bad as Big 10 firing coaches because it is overstepping their boundaries, and the NCAA would have too much power. This also will affect student-athletes of football, which had nothing to do it and it really involved 4 ppl and probably the BOT. In most peoples minds and in high school recruits parents minds, they have already had the death penalty and they will pay for it in in lawsuits and being charged with crimes. By no means do I condone the act by Sandusky or the act of the other individuals involved, but we have to think rationally not emotionally and it will create even more power for the NCAA. Basically, the NCAA can't nor should they be able to punish Penn State. They DID NOT BREAK ANY NCAA RULES!!

[jack power]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

So the NCAA is supposed to make an example, not do what is actually right to punish Penn State. Also, if you do that, the restaurants, hotels, gas stations and other busineses will lose money and you could see loss of jobs and businesses. Its more than just the football program(why punish the players?) its also the students, businesses and just plain people trying to make a living in this economy. Personally I don't really see what NCAA can do. Its not a competitive advantage and its not dealing with students, and tp be honest if the NCAA punishes them, it will overstep their bounderies and set new precedents on what the NCAA can punish you for. Where does it stop?

I really doubt the NCAA envisioned needing a specific rule that a coach,A.D,V.P,and President enabling a pedophile for over a decade was wrong. PSU is not going to get off on a technicality, nor will they want to.

[hareball]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

If players, restaurants, motels, etc suffer because of sanctions placed on Penn State by the NCAA, they should direct their blame at those responsible for the actions resulting in the sanctions rather than the NCAA.

[witness]

Re: Joe Paterno Passes

I posted this a few days ago on ESPN.com...

So the NCAA is supposed to make an example, not do what is actually right to punish Penn State. Also, if you do that, the restaurants, hotels, gas stations and other busineses will lose money and you could see loss of jobs and businesses. Its more than just the football program(why punish the players?) its also the students, businesses and just plain people trying to make a living in this economy. Personally I don't really see what NCAA can do. Its not a competitive advantage and its not dealing with students, and tp be honest if the NCAA punishes them, it will overstep their bounderies and set new precedents on what the NCAA can punish you for. Where does it stop?