Sioux Falls Event Center

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

The problem with restaurants in this part of town is there really isn't enough residential zoning around it to support it when there aren't events at the Arena site. Everything north of Russell is industrial/airport and most everything between Minnesota and Western north of 6th St. is floodway/parks or commercial/office. This also is one of the older parts of town so the residential areas that are here are generally the lower income variety. I don't know if a TIF district would spur any redevelopment of the area or not.

There are some good advantages of putting it at the current site with the infrastructure in place and sharing of facilities for larger events, but development of the area isn't one of them.

If the mayor were prepared to invest significantly in the arena neighborhood, instead of ignoring the parts that won't be paved over, the arena site could work.

However, it would cost as much (ballpark) to make the arena site work as it would cost to build downtown.

You would have to commit to a parking ramp for the site, instead of destroying neighborhood fabric.
You would have to do a district wide TIF and probably do a couple sweetheart deals for hotels/restaurants.
You would have to do a comprehensive zoning study over the entire West Sioux district (roughly: Louise to Russell to Terrace Park to 6th to Burnside to Elmwood to 3rd to Kiwanis to Madison to Louise) and work to isolate redevelopment opportunities.
You would have to streetscape the neighborhood, including decorative lighting, distinctive signage, gateway features, etc.
You would have to establish a neighborhood organization.
You would need to investigate establishing a BID (Business Improvement District) that would partially fund these efforts.

If you do all this, in a decade (give or take) you would have a vibrant "West Sioux" neighborhood that would center around the sports complex.

If you pave McCart and plop the Events Center in between Howard Wood and the SW corner of the Convention Center, you'll have a howling desert in the middle of Sioux Falls 320 days a year. Give or take.

[slosho]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

If the mayor were prepared to invest significantly in the arena neighborhood, instead of ignoring the parts that won't be paved over, the arena site could work.

However, it would cost as much (ballpark) to make the arena site work as it would cost to build downtown.

You would have to commit to a parking ramp for the site, instead of destroying neighborhood fabric.
You would have to do a district wide TIF and probably do a couple sweetheart deals for hotels/restaurants.
You would have to do a comprehensive zoning study over the entire West Sioux district (roughly: Louise to Russell to Terrace Park to 6th to Burnside to Elmwood to 3rd to Kiwanis to Madison to Louise) and work to isolate redevelopment opportunities.
You would have to streetscape the neighborhood, including decorative lighting, distinctive signage, gateway features, etc.
You would have to establish a neighborhood organization.
You would need to investigate establishing a BID (Business Improvement District) that would partially fund these efforts.

If you do all this, in a decade (give or take) you would have a vibrant "West Sioux" neighborhood that would center around the sports complex.

If you pave McCart and plop the Events Center in between Howard Wood and the SW corner of the Convention Center, you'll have a howling desert in the middle of Sioux Falls 320 days a year. Give or take.

Believe it or not I do believe the DT site would have the most economic impact, but the pragmatics of the other site speak to most SD'ans

And about the West Sioux neighborhood, my family has roots there and it could all be a parking lot for all I care. the only thing there that I would miss is Rosie's cafe.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

There are no pragmatic advantages to the arena site--aside from initial cost.

And as far as turning West Sioux into a parking lot is concerned, how much property tax revenue will a city owned parking lot generate? And, as compared to McCart fields, will proximity to a city owned parking lot raise or lower property values?

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

Property tax revenue is huge in this discussion. The problem is the chunk of the electorate that flat opposes any municipal project that increases private property values.

It's a thoroughly self-defeating attitude.

[West-River_Jack]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

In the years since the Convention Center was built the following has occurred:

The Howard Johnson lost its national franchise and was demolished.
The Excel Inn went progressively downhill, first as an EconoLodge and now as some off-brand regional franchise.
The Super 8 is now a Knights Inn (lower tier brand).
The Travelodge became the "Hospitality Suites", then caught fire and is now an apartment building.
The Country Kitchen was built. It lost its franchise and was closed and then reopened as Michaels and has closed again.
The Homer's restaurant closed, then reopened as Nutty's North, then closed and reopened as "Boonies".
The Lion's Pub closed and reopened and then closed again and is now a bus depot.

Are you seeing a pattern here? The Arena site is a wasteland. Putting in a 12,000 seat venue is not going to make it anything other than a wasteland with a 12,000 seat arena in it.

Not all locations are equal. Not in terms of follow-on development, not in terms of sales tax revenue.

Like I said in my earlier post, I tend to gravitate to the 26th and I-29 area. I don't think I am the only one. Just because the development doesn't take place within spitting distance of the center doesn't mean somebody isn't making money and the city and state aren't collecting some sales taxes from the fans. I think the voters would be wise to consider the city as a whole and not selfishly look only at their own neighborhood. It might have been smarter to have a vote before a site was named.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

the city and state aren't collecting some sales taxes from the fans.

No extra property tax revenue, though. That's the cheese.

[West-River_Jack]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

No extra property tax revenue, though. That's the cheese.

A motel or restaurant on 26th and Louise doesn't have to pay property tax? My argument is that it doesn't matter where the development takes place in relation to the event center. It is still development. It still promotes the city's growth. It still contributes to the quality of life, and yes, to the tax rolls. No, I cannot cite specific numbers or proof. It's just that I don't have a horse in this race, except that I want to see a South Dakota city prosper as a whole, not just one neighborhood of it.

[West-River_Jack]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

If the mayor were prepared to invest significantly in the arena neighborhood, instead of ignoring the parts that won't be paved over, the arena site could work.

If you pave McCart and plop the Events Center in between Howard Wood and the SW corner of the Convention Center, you'll have a howling desert in the middle of Sioux Falls 320 days a year. Give or take.

Nothing has ever failed downtown. As an example, look at the wildly prosperous Washington Pavilion.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

A motel or restaurant on 26th and Louise doesn't have to pay property tax?

A bare parcel or an underutilized structure that is upgraded due to the events center increases property tax revenue for that parcel. A facility already in existence that sees only an incremental increase in business due to the events center will not pay additional property taxes.

As to the 'benefit the whole state' argument, there is no appreciable difference between the sites as far as the 'whole state' is concerned, except that the downtown site offers the potential for significantly higher school funding.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

Nothing has ever failed downtown. As an example, look at the wildly prosperous Washington Pavilion.

In 2008 the art center lost roughly $52k and the sciences center lost $115k. Pretty tough for the whole facility to turn a profit when you're hauling around $167k in dead weight.

[West-River_Jack]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

A bare parcel or an underutilized structure that is upgraded due to the events center increases property tax revenue for that parcel. A facility already in existence that sees only an incremental increase in business due to the events center will not pay additional property taxes.

As to the 'benefit the whole state' argument, there is no appreciable difference between the sites as far as the 'whole state' is concerned, except that the downtown site offers the potential for significantly higher school funding.

Actually, I said "city" not "state". If you are only interested in property taxes, recruit a refinery to build downtown. Like I said, I really have no horse in this race. I have said enough.

[Nidaros]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

The dialogue continues. Like West River I have no horse in this race, but there has to be developers who are watching this with interest and planning future development. Perhaps these developers have no horse in this race either. Especially if you own properties that would benefit from one or the the other chosen location. Its called laughing all the way to the bank.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

If you are only interested in property taxes, recruit a refinery to build downtown.

Because it wouldn't be a net benefit. It would greatly diminish property tax values over a significant radius.

[goon]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I support the DT site and do not own a business or land. It is the only place I will support or vote for. SF alraedy knows it was a 50 year mistake building the old arena where it did. How many cities build downtown and regretted the location? AS far as I have come across. It doesn't exsist. If fact everyone I know who supports downtown has no connection to a business or land owned.

Also, who owns most of these businesses? Are they national chains who send out all thier profits to thier investors, or are they local owners who lived and grew up here and who keep any money they make right back in the community. I am tired of people vilifing business owners.

The point most poeple forget is, the more these businesses profit and sell, the more tax money SF brings in. If people just drive in and out and only attend the event, SF failed to profit off of these consumers.

[bigticket1]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I support the DT site and do not own a business or land. It is the only place I will support or vote for. SF alraedy knows it was a 50 year mistake building the old arena where it did. How many cities build downtown and regretted the location? AS far as I have come across. It doesn't exsist. If fact everyone I know who supports downtown has no connection to a business or land owned.

Also, who owns most of these businesses? Are they national chains who send out all thier profits to thier investors, or are they local owners who lived and grew up here and who keep any money they make right back in the community. I am tired of people vilifing business owners.

The point most poeple forget is, the more these businesses profit and sell, the more tax money SF brings in. If people just drive in and out and only attend the event, SF failed to profit off of these consumers.

The number of people who drive in and out for the event will not significantly change regardless of the site.