Sioux Falls Event Center

[bigticket1]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

And how did all that new development associated with the Metrodome work out ? And while Target Field has increased the business of existing bars/restaurants in the area,the only "new" name I can find is Smalleys,and they replaced an already existing restaurant.

[MikeHenriksen]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

All true, zoo, with one exception. HoJo's closed because of bad ownership and mold. I am not going to say they were doing landoffice business, but bad management did more harm to them than their location.

Nice to hear measured remarks from someone who would like to see the EC downtown. I have no major preference, but it has been tough to get answers from some of the louder BID folks.

So a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. Will there be no "sweatheart deals" if the EC is built downtown? And where will the additional motels go up? I count 2 down there now (not counting the Albert House). There is not a lot of room once you put in an EC and account for parking.

Also, while I understand the need for a viable downtown area being key to the success of a city, at what point has a city done enough for one part of town? Does SF owe it to someone who has made a large investment at 57th and Cliff to assure their success? 69th and Louise? The Empire Mall? The new Sanford sports area? I think downtown is very enjoyable and improved now, thanks in large part to the city's help and some forward thinking individuals. However, at what point does someone decide that what is good for one area is good for all? That does not only apply to downtown, does it?

Looking forward to hearing some answers. Too many "facts", on both sides, have gotten drowned out by the volume of the debate.

One side note: There is a very interesting blog from an out-of-towner at www.callingallsportssd.com. Click on the "Calling it As We See It" icon. That person is also a poster on this board from time to time.

[KUlawJack]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

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[HoboD]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

Being from the central part of the state, I get a regular and equal chance to compare Sioux Falls to Rapid City on alot of things. While Sioux Falls talks and talks and talks, Rapid City went ahead and built a SECOND arena to their civic center complex. (If you havent been in the hockey arena, believe me it is first class.) The RC Civic center pays for it self. It always has. I have two trips planned to RC in the next 6 weeks to see concerts. Zero to Sioux Falls. As an outsider it looks to me like the Sioux Falls fight is all about "economic development" which translates into whose pockets are going to be lined. (As a side note, the downtown site is supposed to be attached to a privately owned building? Whats the deal with that? I mean really, whats the deal with that? Ive read nothing about the specifics of a proposal that would literally hook a public building to a privately owned building. Who pays who for that deal?

The bottomline. The Sioux Falls Arena is an embarrassment. I have come down every year for the Summit tournament out of loyalty to the Jacks, but Im embarrassed for our state when I see those folks from out of town. The best thing for Sioux Falls would be for the Summit to head out of town and wake some people up.

Instead of worrying about whose pockets are going to get lined. Worry about getting a nice facility for your community and the region. Even if no one gets rich off the deal, the folks in Sioux Falls will benefit just like the citizens of Rapid City have.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

All true, zoo, with one exception. HoJo's closed because of bad ownership and mold. I am not going to say they were doing landoffice business, but bad management did more harm to them than their location.

True. But that room inventory is not going to be replaced, in the same way that the room inventory lost when the Travelodge/Rodeway/something-or-another-suites went to apartments was not replaced.

So a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind. Will there be no "sweatheart deals" if the EC is built downtown? And where will the additional motels go up? I count 2 down there now (not counting the Albert House). There is not a lot of room once you put in an EC and account for parking.

There will be a third regardless, as the Ramkota people have a sweeheart deal to put one in on the east side of the old River Ramp. With that, there will be roughly 500 rooms within a few blocks of the downtown events center (the Holiday Inn is the biggest hotel in Sioux Falls)

I have no doubt that there will be another heavily subsidized class A hotel built either at the Arena site or downtown. You inevitably have to subsidize redevelopment because it's so much more expensive than new construction.

As to the location of redevelopment and new construction, there will be the space opened up by relocating the BNSF switching yards, as well as blocks and blocks of 'sub optimal' usage between the river, 6th, 8th, and Cliff, as well as along Weber up to Falls Park.

However, at what point does someone decide that what is good for one area is good for all? That does not only apply to downtown, does it?

You don't have to subsidize greenfield development. You do have to subsidize preservation and redevelopment. It's considerably more expensive. If downtown wasn't subsidized it would fall apart because investment money follows the path of least resistance, and a dilapidated downtown is bad for Sioux Falls.

[jackrabit1]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

Just off the top of my head, Downtown Sioux Falls has the following drawing points...

Falls Park
The Orpheum
Old Courthouse Museum
Sculpture Walk
Washington Pavillion

And I'm sure a lot more drawing points that I'm forgetting, but these are the main ones that stick out.

Sioux Falls already has more attractions in that square mile in and around their main street than most other large cities in South Dakota... at what point is enough enough?

Someone talked about the need for economic development downtown... well, if you're counting on an events center to be placed downtown in order to be able to succeed business-wise... then you really need to reconsider your business model.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

Sioux Falls already has more attractions in that square mile in and around their main street than most other large cities in South Dakota... at what point is enough enough?

I don't know. You tell me: What city has thrived while neglecting its core?

[jackrabit1]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I'm sorry, but how are all those attractions "neglecting" its core? See, this is exactly why people were turned off by the BID-ers... that and all the whining and caterwauling... and when worse came to worse, political dirty tricks. I don't think having the events center in a more accessable part of the city (which is only a mile and a half from downtown, mind you) is going to be the death knell of the downtown area. This "gloom and doom" BS is really getting old.

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I'm sorry, but how are all those attractions "neglecting" its core?

I have already said, more than once, that building at the Arena could succeed if there was a simultaneous reinvestment in the surrounding urban fabric. Redevelopment requires subsidization.

My question is why the city should undertake the wholesale redevelopment of the Arena neighborhood when they've already sunk a small fortune into downtown Sioux Falls?

This is about -leveraging- the city's prior investment in downtown, not about giving the 'haves' more.

Why invest a fortune in downtown and then place a $120M building in the middle of sixteen square blocks of parking lot because 'it's not fair to spend all that money in one place'?

[KUlawJack]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I have already said, more than once, that building at the Arena could succeed if there was a simultaneous reinvestment in the surrounding urban fabric. Redevelopment requires subsidization.

My question is why the city should undertake the wholesale redevelopment of the Arena neighborhood when they've already sunk a small fortune into downtown Sioux Falls?

This is about -leveraging- the city's prior investment in downtown, not about giving the 'haves' more.

Why invest a fortune in downtown and then place a $120M building in the middle of sixteen square blocks of parking lot because 'it's not fair to spend all that money in one place'?

"Must spread rep..."

[MikeHenriksen]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

zoo: Good information! Just one correction. The HoJo property will be a motel again. My understanding is that the size and scope (retail, office space) depends on the location of the EC. Arena location, the project will be bigger and more "stay" worthy, downtown means smaller and more catered to the folks passing through. It is similar to the folks waiting to invest in downtown.

A couple of other thoughts. These discussions may be moot anyway, as I am not convinced that this will pass a public vote anyway. However, the DT location will bring the albatross that is the Washington Pavillion to the forefront of the debate. Many, MANY people in SF see that as a losing proposition that came in way over budget and has under-delivered. And many of the people that see it in that light vote. It will still be brought up, but an Arena location will, in my opinion, soften some of backlash against that decision of 15 years ago. South Dakotans just don't forget, for better or worse.

I am in the "just get it built" camp, and I see the Arena site as the one with the least resistance.

[slosho]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I'm with Mike. Just build it. but if I can voice my prefrence it would not be downtown... which if you ask me isn't even downtown it is on the wrong side of the river to be downtown... it is only next to downtown. but I digress...

[bigticket1]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I would hope that most reasonable people would agree that a new Events Center would be good for Sioux Falls regardless of the site,and that there will be new developement regardless of the site. What bothers me are the people who stick out their lower lip and say they are going to take their bat and ball and go home (and even campaign against it) if it isn't built where they would prefer. It seems to me that they have interests other than the growth of the city as a whole. There will never be a new facility built anywhere if these factions cannot pull together for the greater good of Sioux Falls.

[MikeHenriksen]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

I would hope that most reasonable people would agree that a new Events Center would be good for Sioux Falls regardless of the site,and that there will be new developement regardless of the site. What bothers me are the people who stick out their lower lip and say they are going to take their bat and ball and go home (and even campaign against it) if it isn't built where they would prefer. It seems to me that they have interests other than the growth of the city as a whole. There will never be a new facility built anywhere if these factions cannot pull together for the greater good of Sioux Falls.

Hammer, meet the head of the nail!

[zooropa]

Re: Sioux Falls Event Center

zoo: Good information! Just one correction. The HoJo property will be a motel again. My understanding is that the size and scope (retail, office space) depends on the location of the EC. Arena location, the project will be bigger and more "stay" worthy, downtown means smaller and more catered to the folks passing through. It is similar to the folks waiting to invest in downtown.

A couple of other thoughts. These discussions may be moot anyway, as I am not convinced that this will pass a public vote anyway. However, the DT location will bring the albatross that is the Washington Pavillion to the forefront of the debate. Many, MANY people in SF see that as a losing proposition that came in way over budget and has under-delivered. And many of the people that see it in that light vote. It will still be brought up, but an Arena location will, in my opinion, soften some of backlash against that decision of 15 years ago. South Dakotans just don't forget, for better or worse.

I am in the "just get it built" camp, and I see the Arena site as the one with the least resistance.

1 - At best, IIRC, Graham was talking about an 80 unit motel at the HoJo site. That's less than half the inventory of the old property.

2 - The pavilion is an art gallery, kid's museum and performing arts center. The art gallery has *always* been subsidized, and kid's museums seldom pay their way in a city of this size--heck, almost all small museums are money losers and the Pavilion has two of them.

And it bears repeating that facilities like the Rapid City Civic Center may cover their operating costs year in and year out, but the facility itself is not tasked with generating enough revenue to retire the debt that was taken on to build it.