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**OK_Jackrabbit** · 10-22-2005, 04:16 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

The "prestigious" University of Wyoming (my wife got her MA there) has about 1,500 more students than SDSU. I'm not sure there's any prestige gap there. Do people on the east coast sit around thinking of Ivy and intellectuals often include Wyoming in their thoughts? Um... no. And Laramie, while it is in a beautiful setting, isn't exactly Ann Arbor or Iowa City.

**SDSUFAN** · 10-22-2005, 04:42 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

This is a tough subject which does not have simple solutions and maybe I should not even comment except I think the BOR are moving in the right direction if they approved the lowering of out of state tuition of nearby states. This has been South Dakota's bread and butter for a long time. Most of the comments in article have some substance and maybe they describe a certain part of the problem and not the big picture.

What I do know is that it is so much more expensive to attend a SD state assisted institution today than it was 40 years ago. Scholarships and lower tuition rates are very important in order to keep the enrollement levels up.

The retention of tradtional grads continues to be a big problem. I recall more than one class in the social sciences over forty years ago, where the prof took a show of hands on a question "How many of you students intend to stay in South Dakota, after your formal education is completed?" In all instances of this polling I recall less than 15 hand going up and with the followup question" How many of you in this class plan on leaving SD after you graduate?" Then the majority of hands would go up.

So is it surprising now that we have our alumni association bombarded with requests for reunions, pregame parties and etc in places that are not part of South Dakota?

I think SD needs to continue to build their industrial base and continue to attract business that provide opportunities for those in SD who do want to stay.
Also non-traditional students coming back for education gives SD a new opportunity that was not there forty years ago.

The attraction of big cities kind of go sour when you experience home sickness for a few years, but back then as now, I dont seem to have a comprehenisve answer. Except " You can go anywhere from SDSU". I do believe that motto and we need to keep believing.

**SoDak** · 10-24-2005, 12:52 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

I think it's funny that so many 18 year olds think life will be so much better if they can just get out of "backward" SD. In the age of the internet, this is just not true. I travel extensively for work, and work in a highly technical profession. I can say first-hand that technology and infrastructure in this state is top-notch. We have better wired schools than vast stretches of the rest of the country. Broadband was mainstream here by 1999, and in Pennsylvania three weeks ago I dealt with a user 40 miles from Philly who couldn't get broadband.
Our weakness is pay, really. I shudder to think what I could make if I went in for the hassle of a major city. Although, it's important to know that part of that cost is eaten up in over all quality of life and cost of living. Everyone's fleeing to the sunbelt, and many problems are hitching a ride.
Also, I have more than 10 friends who were eager after graduation to hit a city, who have slowly migrated back to SF because of the problems encountered in many cities. I think it's pointless to gather the opinion of an 18 year old when deciding how to formulate public policy, mainly because I'm young enough yet to remember what a dope I was at 18.

**HoboD** · 10-24-2005, 04:58 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

As the parent of one child who left the state and is a FIGHTING SIOUX and another child who is a Jackrabbit, I dont think most kids leave SD because they think its backwards. Just as the many kids who leave Minn to come to SDSU dont think Minn is backwards. In some cases its because the program they desire is not available nearby their home. In other cases, its because they want a fresh start, distinct from the other kids in their home town high school, for others it might be just a desire for a new adventure. (I think alot of kids who go out of state, go to regional school because of price breaks, but also because they are away from home, BUT NOT TO FAR from home). In the end, alot of them do come back, and thats great because they bring back with them, new ideas, new viewpoints and a new appreciation for what we have here. And those that dont come back give the rest of the world a taste of how great South Dakota people are.

**SDSUFAN** · 10-24-2005, 05:04 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

Originally posted by SoDak

I think it's funny that so many 18 year olds think life will be so much better if they can just get out of "backward" SD. �In the age of the internet, this is just not true. �I travel extensively for work, and work in a highly technical profession. �I can say first-hand that technology and infrastructure in this state is top-notch. �We have better wired schools than vast stretches of the rest of the country. �Broadband was mainstream here by 1999, and in Pennsylvania three weeks ago I dealt with a user 40 miles from Philly who couldn't get broadband. �
Our weakness is pay, really. �I shudder to think what I could make if I went in for the hassle of a major city. �Although, it's important to know that part of that cost is eaten up in over all quality of life and cost of living. �Everyone's fleeing to the sunbelt, and many problems are hitching a ride. �
Also, I have more than 10 friends who were eager after graduation to hit a city, who have slowly migrated back to SF because of the problems encountered in many cities. �I think it's pointless to gather the opinion of an 18 year old when deciding how to formulate public policy, mainly because I'm young enough yet to remember what a dope I was at 18. � �

I don't dispute any of your comments except to add that times have changed somewhat in the last forty years. There are no doubt more opportunities in SD then 40 years ago. Forty years ago, I suspect Daktonics was only a dream in Alred Kurtenbach's mind, but today its a big employer of SDSU grads. Other companies have been established in the Sioux Falls area and elsewhere, likewise.
I will not dispute the quality of life that a rural state like SD has to offer. The only thing that bothers me is retail services in towns less than 1500 often are non-existent. You do have to drive to get these services.

I do think we all have the right to be 18 sometime in life and the right to be young and stupid. I ended up with a career in USDA, one of which could have started in SD, but I definetly had a different outlook of where I wanted to go. We just have to play life out and go where it takes us.

I dont think the profs 40 years ago were trying to set any public policy, but they were more or less trying to confirm in their own mind that a out migration of SDSU grads did exist and indeed it did exist.

The points about the broadband and internet are well taken and good ones. I worked in an agency that financied utility plant for rural telephone companies.

**OK_Jackrabbit** · 10-24-2005, 05:55 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

The question I get asked more by parents of prospective students is: How much do the jobs in your field pay? The kinds of things students ask are very different, and lead me to believe they're more interested in whether or not they'll find a way to "fit in" on campus while they're here and whether they'll be given an opportunity to find their niche on campus.

I think parents would do better not to try to pigeon-hole their children, forcing them into a major that "pays" well right away. It's better, in my opinion, to let young people explore a bit during their first year or two in college to figure out what they want to do. They're much more likely to succeed in college if they find something they care about, rather than something their parents think might pay well. The financial value of a given major doesn't always translate into a happy life, now does it? And we all want our children to find something they're passionate about. At least I hope we do.

I think SDSU offers good opportunities for students to fit in on campus and to find what they want to do. That doesn't mean it's a good fit for every young person. But for an 18-year-old who wants a comfortable place to search for what they'll do after college, it's got enough variety of programs that they'll probably find it here.

**MilwaukeeJacksAlum** · 10-24-2005, 09:47 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

As someone with both a public SDSU education and private Marquette post-grad education, I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in.

In my opinion, here is what you get from a private institution that you don't get from a public institution. Student loan payments equal to a car payment for a new Mercedes.

My wife walked away from SDSU with a BS after having paid for every nickle on her own and through the aid of Uncle Sam. Her total debt when all was said and done? Approximately $14,000.00. (My debt was none because of athletic and academic scholarships, so I'm using her as the SDSU example.)

I walked away from Marquette Law School with a JD (tuition essentially the same as Marquette Undergrad) after receiving a 1/3 academic scholarship and borrowing the rest. My total debt after 3 years? Approximately $75,000.00.

My education at SDSU included several classes by very respected educators. My advisor and favorite professor was Bob Burns who is one of the most respected professors in his field in the country. My major, Political Science, and minor, Philosophy, were some of the smallest fields of study in the school, yet the majority of the classrooms I attended were stocked full of state-of-the-art electronics (including DVD players when they were just coming out). I never once felt like I was receiving a sub-class education or involved in a poor learning environment.

My education at Marquette included classes with very respected professors as well. Many well-respected as national leaders in their field. However, there were poor professors, too. The classrooms were a joke. The nicest classroom I attended had a roll-in TV with the VCR underneath. Not exactly state-of-the-art. The nicest room reminded me of the classes I attended in the classrooms hidden back in the Barn at SDSU. I'm not exaggerating.

My point after this long posting is that most private institutions struggle at times with overall financial needs. Marquette has a huge backing in the area in regards to alumni with deep pockets. Especially, the law school. However, I spent 3 years in what would have been the worst building on SDSU's campus.

As for the education, I can't complain. I was very impressed with my Marquette professors and learned a great deal. However, I was no more impressed with any professor at Marquette that I was with my professors at SDSU. And, that's really what it comes down to. Unless you're going to Yale or Harvard, the private school myth is just that. All you end up with is a lot of debt that takes you years to pay off (speaking from experience) for a product basically equal to that which you could have obtained from a fine public institution.

**It should be noted that approx 1/4 of the 125 of my lawschool classmates received some financial assistance while attending MU. I was one of the lucky ones who received essentially one of my years for free due to a 1/3 scholarship. (of course I ended up borrowing for the full amount anyway because we were broke) Not too bad coming from a hick institution like SDSU. Also, the assistant Dean of the lawschool? A former member of the Fighting Sioux football team.

**SDSUFAN** · 10-24-2005, 11:08 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

Originally posted by HoboD

As the parent of one child who left the state and is a FIGHTING SIOUX and another child who is a Jackrabbit, I dont think most kids leave SD because they think its backwards. �Just as the many kids who leave Minn to come to SDSU dont think Minn is backwards. �In some cases its because the program they desire is not available nearby their home. �In other cases, its because they want a fresh start, distinct from the other kids in their home town high school, for others it might be just a desire for a new adventure. �(I think alot of kids who go out of state, go to regional school because of price breaks, but also because they are away from home, BUT NOT TO FAR from home). � In the end, alot of them do come back, and thats great because they bring back with them, new ideas, new viewpoints and a new appreciation for what we have here. �And those that dont come back give the rest of the world a taste of how great South Dakota people are. �

Forty years ago I did not leave SD because it seemed backward so much as it seemed to lack opportunity at least I thought so at the time. Plus I had a draft board breathing very heavily down my neck which forced a four year stint in the US Navy. Well worth the time I might add. I thought all the opportunity was in Southern California when I got out of services. It looked different then. I started with one company in LA, was transferred to Dayton Ohio, suburban Chicago, before going with USDA and working in Nebraska. I really regret not exploring the SD opportunities after my military service.

Yes I am very glad some folks see fit to come back to SD and bring their new thoughts and ideas with them.
We need that ideology badly.

Although I missed the Hobo Day game, I am still amazed with the 14,503 attendence. This is greater than its been in prior years with a more competitive NCC opponent. I keep wondering why? Could this some sort of a progressive movement at work here, namely our move to D1?

**1stRowFANatic** · 10-24-2005, 05:09 PM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

I guess I'll add my two cents as someone who went the public school route, left the state and then returned. I was very fortunate to be recruited by many schools when deciding which law school to attend. (For the USD undergrads reading this, that means I was recruited by out of state schools also.

couldn't resist).

Looking back, the best advice I got in deciding where I wanted to go was to first decide where I wanted to work and what I wanted to do. I was offered financial aid packages that were quite significant, but the debt I still would have incurred would have been at least as much as Milwaukee, at several places considerably more.

While it is true that a few job opportunities were not available to me because I did not attend a "prestigious" school, but there were also many more opportunites that WERE available to me because I did not require a salary to pay back a huge debt. I left SD to work for a firm in the Twin Cities, but then decided that i would rather see my children than tail lights, and we returned to Sioux Falls working for a non-profit organization at lower salary, but netting about the same.

As for the flatland icebox comment, pretty common reference for Black Hills' residents to use for eastern SD. And for many upcoming days, probably pretty accurate, but I can't wait for the next "killer blizzard!"

**Rabbitlivinginverm** · 10-24-2005, 07:49 PM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

I can see where both MJA and 1st row are coming from. Here's my situation...undergrad at SDSU all paid for through financial aid totaling around $14,000. I will finish my M.S. in Criminal Justice from a private school in November--again all paid for with financial aid totaling a little less than $30,000. I chose a private school for my M.S. over SDSU for a couple of reasons, but mainly because the convienence of the class schedule so I could continue to work full-time. As far as technology in the classroom, my grad school is one of the leaders in the nation. But I can't say that it's much better than the technology in most of the classrooms at SDSU. With the exception that everyone is issued a labtop and they have wireless internet throughout the small campus. Other than that, not much difference.

As someone who has recently moved from eastern SD to western SD, I'm starting to understand why people love it out here. Not that there's anything wrong with Brookings, in fact, I would like to return to the area down the road. But, the only real reasons why I prefer eastern SD right now are 1) My family and 2) To be closer to SDSU and able to attend more games.

**SDSUFAN** · 10-25-2005, 03:45 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

This has become a very interesting thread. I went back and read the quotes in the first post and I guess I have been talking past the true cost of education and more about life after education. I knew we had legal eagles posting here and it is staggering the costs of getting a qualified education.

The preceived downward trend of less traditional students will be putting a great deal of pressure on the private institutions that are tuition driven. There are more than one institution that claims an Advantage as does Augustana. With fewer students to woe, its going to be quite a clash.

The SD image may be the flat icebox as the one guy claimed, but I dont think SD BOR needs to do any reorganization as all six state asssisted schools have to a certain degree distinct missions. Lower tuition rates for nearby states is definitely the answer and may put some private schools particularily in the upper midwest in a trouble spot as they will probably suffer the most from declining enrollments because they are tuition driven in terms of a budget.

**OK_Jackrabbit** · 10-25-2005, 05:02 AM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

A few of you mentioned the quality professors at SDSU. I think the personal attention of professors is one of the things we're selling to students here. They can go to Iowa, where they'll spend most of their first three years with graduate assistants. There's nothing wrong with that, and grad assistants can be great teachers. But the experience that students at SDSU get, working closely with people like Bob Burns, is what makes the place special. That emphasis on teaching, frankly, is one reason why I came back. You won't find that emphasis at all in places like OU or Purdue (not to say there aren't great teachers there, but they're not rewarded for it or encouraged to do it like they are here.)

I think in marketing SDSU to prospective students, some of those differences between places like SDSU and, for example, the massive and impersonal University of Minnesota, should be emphasized. It's not just 'you can go anywhere from here' it's that you'll find professors here who will help you figure out where you want to go.

**Rodentia** · 10-25-2005, 02:28 PM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

If someone wishes to attend a private university, that's fine, it's their choice. But the idea that state schools spend huge amounts of money on sports, while private schools do not is false. Look around, there are plenty of big-budget athletic programs at private colleges, and plenty of state schools with small athletic budgets. That's why we have levels of competition.

No disrespect intended to Wyoming, but I too am unaware of any difference in prestige between SDSU and Wyoming. It should be noted that part of sports do add to a school's prestige - D-I athletics do give a school name recognition.

**OK_Jackrabbit** · 10-25-2005, 05:53 PM

Re: Argus editorial - couple of quotes

Rodentia is right. It's worth keeping in mind that athletic budgets and academic budgets are two separate items at nearly every university, public or private (Vanderbilt is the only exception I can think of.) That dopey kid from Sioux Falls is completely deluded if he thinks that D1 sports have taken a penny out of the academic budget at SDSU. Athletics spends the money that athletics takes in. And by the way, the majority of that money pays for scholarships for student athletes. That's a net increase in academic support built into an expanding athletic program. Duh.

(As a professor, I have to say I hear more and more of that sort of uninformed opinion on all manner of topics. Students feel, for some reason, empowered to express what they 'think' they know without supporting their opinions with facts. And if they do encounter facts that dispute their opinions, they discount them as "biased" in some way. It's really a very frightening situation. For many of these kids, facts are lies because they don't support the half-baked opinions they've told they have a right to express. Ugh.)

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