St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

[SDSUFAN]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I wonder if this same debate was around back in the day when UNI, Creighton, Montana schools, and others were still d2 and some even in the NCC. History often repeats itself, after a few more years things will settle down and we'll all probably forget all this talk. People natrually feel uncomfortable with change and do things they normally wouldn't do. UND, St. Cloud for example, ever see someone with a nervous twitch? Same thing.

What I recall about UNI, Creighton, Montana schools going D1, I doubt there was little if any discussion. The big difference in terms of fan reaction is that, we did not have message boards where fans could voice their opinion.

I think there was some concern about UNI, but I think back then particularily the Nodaks, kind of dreaded that trip to Cedar Falls as it was a long ways and no interstate highways. I am speaking of the 1950's and early 1960's.   So I think most of the NCC thought that UNI move was a travel cost reduction which they said basically" Good Luck".  Since UNO jioned the NCC and Mankato came back and  plus UNC joined, nothing was said and everyone was happy. Thats not the case now and likewise the reaction is much different.

Times have changed so much since then. I think about 1956 or even 1957, we had a home and home Men's basketball games with Creigthon and it was about then that they decided to move up and later they joined the Missouri Valley Conference.

I believe we  started a 11 year home and home contract with Montana State in football in about 1956. Other than that long term contract we never competed against either Montana schools until the 1970's when both MU and MSU popped up occasionally.

Without a doubt UND AND SCSU are watching very closely about what happens in Brookings and Fargo in the next couple of years.  If our bb attendence figures pick up, I am sure they are going to give it a more serious try. I think in both cases some of the coaches who are on the study committee. Atleast this is the case at UND. Gene Roebuck who I heard on radio last spring was very committed to staying D2 in women's BB, but maybe the fact that we may have picked up some of his recruits this year may have changed his mind.

If these schools are avoiding an outside firm such as Carr for an evaluation study, because it a budget breaker cost,then what does that tell you? Some one has already formed their own conclusion that its best to remain D2.

One thing that would make the decision much easier would be a wealthy alum who feels very strongly about a move to D1 and donates several million to that cause. In UND, I dont think they will have another Ralph Engelstad step forword, but I could be absolutely wrong.

[filbert]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I wonder if this same debate was around back in the day when UNI, Creighton, Montana schools, and others were still d2 and some even in the NCC. History often repeats itself, after a few more years things will settle down and we'll all probably forget all this talk. People natrually feel uncomfortable with change and do things they normally wouldn't do. UND, St. Cloud for example, ever see someone with a nervous twitch? Same thing.

I think UND will move up in the next couple of years. That will probably force SCSU to move up as well.

At that point, the NCC will have three choices:
1) Disband, with the refugee teams going to the NSIC, MIAA, and/or the DAC if that league moves up to D-II;
2) Try to poach the stronger teams from the NSIC--Winona, NSU, SMSU, etc. and remain a viable D-II league;
3) Move up as a league to D-I.

With the general lack of strategic vision that the conference has shown, I'd say that the NCC will try 2) first, then proceed to 1) and vanish from the national sports scene.

If they had an ounce of vision, they'd do 3), and take on the three other GWFC teams as associate members. (Especially if Augie drops football and goes I-AAA). This would give you a football NCC of:
Minnesota-Duluth
St. Cloud State
Minnesota State
North Dakota
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Nebraska-Omaha
UC Davis
Cal Poly
Southern Utah

and a basketball league of:
Minnesota-Duluth
St. Cloud State
Minnesota State
North Dakota
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Augustana
South Dakota
Nebraska-Omaha

An 11-team football league is a bit unwieldy, but the Big 10 shows it can be done. If you can poach Sacramento State or Portland State from the Big Sky (it would serve them right!) then you have a 12-team league that could hold a championship game (say, in the Metrodome?).

A nine-team basketball league would be very workable. Sixteen conference games and eleven non-conference games, with a conference championship in the Target Center.

Quite workable. Would have been very workable three years ago. Would still work now. In a few years with the right marketing and scheduling decisions, this is a league that could have the same kind of D-I success that the Missouri Valley Conference is having.

Too bad the NCC schools lack the vision to make it happen.

[goyotes]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I would love to see the current NCC schools along with the Jacks and Bison playing in the same conference. If it takes the remaining NCC schools moving up to 1-AA to make it happen, so be it. All smack talk aside, I thing most of the Coyote and Rabbit fans and the Sioux and Bison fans miss the old rivalries. I realize the Rabbits and Bison would become eligible for post season competion by joining an existing basketball conference.

Questions for the Rabbit fans (please no smack):

Are the benefits of rejoining the NCC as a 1-AA conference are worth the delay in qualifying for post season play?

Do you feel that SDSU can eventually compete for any national titles at the D1 level?

Should the NCAA create the equivalent of a 1-AA for sports other than football ?

[SDSUFAN]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I would love to see the current NCC schools along with the Jacks and Bison playing in the same conference.  If it takes the remaining NCC schools moving up to 1-AA to make it happen, so be it.  All smack talk aside, I thing most of the Coyote and Rabbit fans and the Sioux and Bison fans miss the old rivalries.  I realize the Rabbits and Bison would become eligible for post season competion by joining an existing basketball conference.  

Questions for the Rabbit fans (please no smack):

Are the benefits of rejoining the NCC as a 1-AA conference are worth the delay in qualifying for post season play?  

Do you feel that SDSU can eventually compete for any national titles at the D1 level?

Should the NCAA create the equivalent of a 1-AA for sports other than football ?

The answers to your questions are

1. No. I dont miss the USD crowd that much. Also finding the a conference is not easy, but its not impossible either.  From my sources, SDSU is still in dialogue with a number of conferences other than Roger Thomas and the NCC.

2. yes. We are not eligible to compete until 2008, but thats the rules of the  NCAA game in moving to D1. Competing for a D1 championship with a fully funded program can be no harder or easier than competing for a D2 championship. Certainly not impossible.

3. No and the reason is that D2, D3 playoffs do not currently fully finance themselves. A portion of the revenues that D1 gets from CBS and also BSC are used to make up the deficits that D2 and D3 schools incurr in hosting playoff games.  These deficits occur more often than they are publized.  If an additional classification is established where would the money to fund their playoffs come from?  This is why there is no playoffs for D1AA non-scholarships schools like Drake Dayton Valpraisio.etc  This is also why Roger Thomas's idea of another classification is dead on arrival.

Your questions seem to beg for a modified version of D1 that is really D2 and would fit the current NCC budget of its current members. This is not what SDSU has in mind and I say that with no smack intended. ;D

[filbert]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I would love to see the current NCC schools along with the Jacks and Bison playing in the same conference. If it takes the remaining NCC schools moving up to 1-AA to make it happen, so be it. All smack talk aside, I thing most of the Coyote and Rabbit fans and the Sioux and Bison fans miss the old rivalries. I realize the Rabbits and Bison would become eligible for post season competion by joining an existing basketball conference.

Questions for the Rabbit fans (please no smack):

Are the benefits of rejoining the NCC as a 1-AA conference are worth the delay in qualifying for post season play?

Do you feel that SDSU can eventually compete for any national titles at the D1 level?

Should the NCAA create the equivalent of a 1-AA for sports other than football ?

1. Yes. A D-I NCC would IMHO be worth the autobid wait. Note that that's all we're talking about--schools are eligible for post-season play after the five year reclassification period. It's that additional 8-year wait for the conference to get the autobid which is the killer for sports like men's basketball.

But, there is no guarantee that another D-I conference will offer NDSU and SDSU membership. A D-I NCC would drastically reduce travel costs over any other potential D-I conference, and provide easier scheduling for the conference sports. But, for this option to even be in play, the NCC needs to go D-I.

Until then, if the Mid-Con or the Big Sky comes a-calling, I don't see the Bison or Jackrabbits saying no. We already went through the exercise of wating for the conference, and I don't see any reason to wait if another conference knocks on the door.

So the clock is definitely ticking on the NCC. I don't think the conference would be viable at D-I without NDSU and SDSU, but I think it would be a nice regional D-I conference with the Bison and the Rabbits.

2) You question is really "will SDSU win national championships at the D-I level" since obviously if you're in D-I you're competing for the championships. Yes, there will be D-I champions at SDSU.

SDSU, NDSU, and the NCC schools if they move up will compete for national championships at the D-I level. The competition is obviously tougher, so there won't be as many championships as in the D-II days, but there will be nearly as many championships, especially in the "minor" sports. The NCC would also almost instantly become one of the most powerful I-AA football conferences--I think the GWFC with SDSU and NDSU has already shown that. Like I note above, the best solution would be a GWFC-NCC merger.

3) I personally don't see the point of anything like a DII-AA. Actually, I don't see the point of any school not offering the maximum scholarships in any sport that they participate in. That is, if you don't intend to offer 63 scholarships, don't be in I-AA. If you don't intend to offer 36, don't be in II.

There's D-III for schools that want to offer no scholarships at all, and there's that bizarre I-AA non-scholarship, non-championship thing that schools like Valparaiso are in. But my point is, it isn't fair to the athletes you're recruiting if you're not offering the maximum number of scholarships.

I also think that SDSUFAN has an excellent point about how the other divisions' championships are subsidized by Division I. If D-II wants to offer two subdivisions for football, D-II should figure out how to pay for it.

[JBB123]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

1) Of primary concern for the SUs is a conference invitation for BB in the next 3 yrs. There are obvious advantages to a DI NCC but its secondary. I dont see it happning unless enough schools move up and that groups about finished with their transitions.

With no announcements from anyone yet Dr. Taylors statement that NDSU isnt interested until 2009 if we arent already members of another conference is probably the answer for NDSU.

2) The theory of not winning championships is crazy. If you want to win more titles follow Morningside and move down. I dont think moving up has anything to do with championships. It has to do with the quality of the university and its ability to fund athletics at the Division I level. Obviously some Universities shouldnt consider it.

3) I agree that we dont need to support the creation of a cheap Division I for DII schools that cant otherwise move up. If I understand correctly in Division I you need to maintain scholarship levels at 50% of the allowable limit. Thats why its not getting watered down. The new DII members are putting pressure on lowering limits and now a DII school is trying to compromise Division I standards. That worries me a little bit.

[Jacks-D1]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I would support SDSU rejoining the NCC if the whole conference went D-1, even with the wait. I miss the old rivalries and believe attendance and support would be much greater in a D-1 NCC conference. Also travel time and costs would be less. The long wait for an auto-bid is a definite down side, but the NCAA could reduce the wait, you never know.

[sdman]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I too am for a D1 NCC with a newly reconfigured league. Sure we will lengthen the time we are eligible for the ncaa playoffs but in all probability it will take more time than I thought to get up to speed with the schools that do make the big dance. Reduced expenses and the renewal of old rivalries would be great. Who is to say that the big sky or mid cont or horizon will ever take us. Yes, it would be great if they do but there are no guarantees. We need to keep pursuing a d1 ncc option.
Also, I wish there was not so much bad blood between ndsu, sdsu and the old ncc. Don't know who is to blame but we need to get past that and maybe achieve a solution to some of our needs like finding a conference or at least start scheduling each other. Life is too short for bitterness.

[HoboD]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

The whole NCC going D-1 while a nice idea is NEVER going to happen. That is a complete pipe dream. Its all about a HUGE increase in scholarships.

Augie? Is NEVER going to put that kind of money in athletic scholarships so even if they joined, it would be half hearted and they would become even less competitive then they were. (Think Morningside when they were in the NCC.)

USD. Is struggling to fund its D-2 budget, making cuts to do so. Dramatically increase their budget to reach D-1 levels? Aint Gonna Happen.

UND? Probably the best fit for a move to D-1, but is struggling to support its budget at D-2. (Ex. cut its womens tennis budget in half for this year as part of a cost savings effort.)

UNO. Has never had a positive revenue stream from its fan base. Why I dont know. Lots of competition with Creighton and UNL in the same market. So is the Nebraska legislature going to fund a D-1 program that will compete against the Huskers? Never.

St. Cloud, Duluth, Minnesota State? Hockey is king. My guess is thats their priority (although they never will admit it) and again the chances of all 3 wanting to pump a huge amount into other sports is probably zero.

And the SU's should NEVER agree to a watered down D-1 plan, even if the NCAA would allow it. The WHOLE point of D-1 is an increased level of competition, which brings better athletes (or at least more of them) and a bigger stage for the institution. WE SHOULD NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING LESS! And thats what this D-1 NCC concept is all about.

Again, while its possible one, two or possibly three may eventually make the move, all of them will NEVER make the move up.

Patience! By the time we are fully eligible the conference situation will work itself out.

[Texas_Jacks_Fan]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

AMEN HoboD !!!

[jackmd]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

The whole NCC going D-1 while a nice idea is NEVER going to happen.    That is a complete pipe dream.  Its all about a HUGE increase in scholarships.  

Agreed. The NCC as a DI conference is not going to happen for a long time (I won't say never). Hence, the need for the SU's to make the move when they did in an effort to attract suitors from current DI conferences. Not saying we can't spend time discussing what it might be like to have the current NCC (minus maybe 1 or 2) at the DI ranks, just saying its a waste of time.

[filbert]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

I'm already on record that the most likely future for the NCC is that after UND moves up to D-I, the NCC will collapse and its members will either follow SDSU, NDSU, and UND to D-I, or join other, healthier D-II conferences.

I think the only way the NCC survives as a conference is to move to D-I. The fact that they have to take on west coast D-I schools as football affiliates highlights the shaky ground the conference is now on in D-II.

Some quick math shows that the Upper Midwest area, even with NDSU and SDSU in D-I, is short six Division I basketball programs (when you divide the U.S. population by the number of D-I programs). In other words, the current footprint of the NCC (ND, SD, Minnesota, Nebraska) is significantly underserved by Division I basketball.

But, saying that something should happen in the abstract (and even saying that you think it should happen) is different than saying that it will happen.

I have no confidence in the strategic vision of the current set of NCC school presidents, and as has been amply pointed out elsewhere, most of the NCC schools have significant barriers (financial, political, or both) to moving up.

They all (with the possible exception of Augie) should move up.

Smart money is on the under, however.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

One thing that seems to be overlooked when discussing the NCC as a D1 conference - recruiting. In case no one has noticed, South Dakota and North Dakota's combined population is still less than the Greater Milwaukee area. We currently look to Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois (especially in basketball) for alot of our athletic talent while fighting over the 5-10 D1 athletes pumped out by the Dakotas each year. Add St. Cloud, UND and the other NCC schools to the list and we're in some serious competition for a seriously finite amount of D1 athletes in within a 12 hour drive. Plus, the Minn schools would probably have a leg up on nabbing Wisconsin kids as they would be closer commute for the parents to come watch. Lot of hungry mouths to feed without enough food to go around. You can only convince so many kids to come to SD who don't already live in a similar climate. Food for thought.

[JBB123]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

You want to be careful about projections based on populations because we are mostly rural and those figures are mostly urban.  I think that makes a big difference and the Dakotas may have as many DI programs as they can support right now.  

Most likely things to happen in my feeble mind:

1)  NDSU, SDSU and undII join a 2 division 12 team BSC.  UNO and USD go to the MIAA and the NCC accepts the Dac 10 schools.  That makes it a good DII conference in my mind.

2)  NDSU, SDSU and IPFW join a 2 division 12 team Mid Con.  This is very probable because the existing members can really save a bundle if that conference reorganizes to minimize travel.  undII misses its window and remains DII.  The NCC does what it has to.

[West_River_Jack]

Re: St. Cloud State looking at I-AA?

You are also overlooking the need for potential playing opportunities for South Dakota and North Dakota high school graduates. There are quite a few who can play in Division 2 and it is proper that they have a quality D2 program in our states to play in.

In South Dakota the chance for an area athlete to compete for conference championships and maybe even a trip to the national playoffs is best at USD. Opportunities in surrounding states, with the exception of Minnesota, are pretty limited. I only know of one D2 program in Montana and their conference stretches all the way to Texas. Does Iowa have any D2 program besides Upper Iowa who is not currently likely to be winning many championships? In Nebraska there are choices but no University with both broad based academic programs and chances at championships.

Our high school grads deserve a good D2 program!