Today's 1/15/2006 Sunday Argus and UND

[SDSUFAN]

The Argus has an article on UND move to D1 and that it might affect SDSU chances of finding a conference.

The sad part is you can not access the article. You get this  message instead.

Error: Invalid article key (DF,20060115,SPORTS0202,601150337,AR).  

Error: Invalid article key (DF,20060115,SPORTS0202,601150337,AR).  

I tried calling 1800-952-0127 and some real young and smart dude transferred me to the news room where I had the big and huge opportunity to leave a recorded message. So much for the Argus and their great service.
;D

Hopefully the gifted web person at the Argus will get this straighten out.

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

The Argus has an article on UND move to D1 and that it might affect SDSU chances of finding a conference.

The sad part is you can not access the article. You get this  message instead.

Error: Invalid article key (DF,20060115,SPORTS0202,601150337,AR).  

Error: Invalid article key (DF,20060115,SPORTS0202,601150337,AR).  

I tried calling 1800-952-0127 and some real young and smart dude transferred me to the news room where I had the big and huge opportunity to leave a recorded message. So much for the Argus and their great service.
;D

Hopefully the gifted web person at the Argus will get this straighten out.

Maybe someone with a hard copy would be able to provide us with a rundown. They don't sell 'em out here in Sturgis.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

A UND fan mentioned over on D2 football that he could not access the articles either. I guess they will get it fixed but I suppose its like having an car engine blow up on a Sunday. It usually is Monday, before they can do anything. I suspect its true with Argus web as well.

[SiouxFallsJack]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

Here is one of the articles.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs...ategory=SPORTS

UND move might exclude SDSU from conference
by Chris Solari

Should UND decide to move into DI, a scary question hangs over SDSU's head.

What happens if a conference-say the Big Sky-deems the UND-NDSU pairing worthy of admission and excludes SDSU?

It's a plausible scenario. In late 2004 the Fargo Forum uncovered a letter exchange between Kupchella and BSC commissioner Fullerton, who initiated the correspondence. This came after the league presidents told SDSU/NDSU to look elsewhere for a conference in early 2003 and before the BSC added UNC and turned doen the Rabbits/Bison 2nd overture on 12/13/2004.

Why would a UND-NDSU combination seem more attractive?

Foremost, their budgets are already at the level of most BSC schools. According to the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Postsecondary Education, the Bison's athletic budget for the 2004-05 school year was about $7.7 million. The Sioux's budget was morethan $10 million, which includes spending for it's DI hockey program.

SDSU spent more than $6.5 million on athletics a year ago.

Second, there is less distiance for BSC schools to go between Fargo and Grand Forks(80 miles) than between Brookings and Fargon(190 miles). Travel has been cited by the BSC presidents as a primary reason for not adding SDSU and NDSU.

The Bison and Sioux also have a heated rivalry that SDSU and NDSU don't possess-as well as historically strong DII football programs with national championships at that level.

In is favor, SDSU already is a DI provisonary school nearing the midway point of its 5 year transition. Like NDSU, the Rabbits will be eligible for NCAA postseason competition in the 2008-09 school year.

Fullerton said in December 2004 that UND still being a DII school that had not applied for DI status was a major issue.

Under DI bylaws, UND would have to notify the NCAA by 12/1/2006 if it intends to make the 2006-07 school year its exploratory year.

If that were to happen, the Sioux would not become full DI school eligible for postseason tournaments until 2011-12, 3 years after SDSU and NDSU.

[bisonbacker]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

I for one would be totally against anything that includes them and not SDSU. I would much rather see SDSU and NDSU in either the BSC or the MidCon. As far as the patsies to the North of us are concerened they had their chance along with the rest of the NCC and they pretty much played thier hand and almost appeared as if they hoped we would fail. I have also heard rumors of the entire NCC making a move to DI but that will never happen. USD, UMD, and the rest of the NCC don't have the financial backing to make such a move. As far as the Grand Forks wannabe's the only reason and I mean THE ONLY REASON is out of envy of both NDSU and SDSU. They undii has never been a leader and only wants this because NDSU made the move. The other thing to remember about the BSC and undii is that the BSC is not a hockey conference. The other thing to remember is that schools with hockey have a huge financial hole to fill with respect to title IX and hockey. That is the only reason they have spent the money they have on sports. Womens hockey it a huge financial drain. If they move up they will have to increase spending and they are already in the red at DII. Fiscally kup-O-jello their president has said it makes no sense to move up financially or otherwise so why do it now? The only reason is out of spite and jealousy for NDSU. He went so far as to try to persuade the NCAA to change the whole system to let DII schools move up a division alacarte so as to not have to move everything up and it was squashed as it should have been. He's no leader and they cannot afford the move not to mention also that the grand forks area is not supportive of the move and has made that clear as has most of the coaches. I only hope NDSU and SDSU have found a conference and are in it if and when the susies do try to make the move up. I would like nothing better then to tell them to take a hike. We made the move with you and SDSU should be our travel partner in any conference we are in.

[bisonbacker]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

One other point I forgot to make is on the travel issue.  If any team is going to fly to either Fargo or Brookings 80 miles or 180 miles is not an issue.  If they try to make it one thats a bunch of BS.  I've heard the travel being brought up by only a couple of schools in the BSC they were on the west coast and to no suprise one of them has an AD who used to be up at undii and pretty much explains the true reason they were against us.  I wonder if undii had also made the move at the time how his tune would have changed.  He used it for no other reason then he was nothing but a sorry ass AD who hated NDSU and saw it as a reason to try to keep us out.  Like I stated in my previous post any conference looking at either school should see us NDSU/SDSU as travel partners and to hell with undii.

[bisonguy]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

Under DI bylaws, UND would have to notify the NCAA by 12/1/2006 if it intends to make the 2006-07 school year its exploratory year.

The deadline was changed to Sept. 1, from the 2005/2006 NCAA DI Manual

20.5.2.1  Deadline for Submission of Petition.  When petitioning for change of division member-
ship, a member shall notify the Division I Management Council Membership Subcommittee on an
application approved by the subcommittee. The application shall be received in the national office
(by mail or wired transmission) not later than September 1 during the academic year that the
institution begins its one-year exploratory period in the reclassification process.  Any application
received after that date shall be postmarked not later than August 25.  Afee of $15,000 shall
accompany the application.  If the applicant fails to qualify for active membership, the application
fee shall be refunded, less any expenditure for educational costs related to the membership
process.  (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02, 4/24/03 effective 8/1/03, 3/10/04, 4/28/05)

Previously, I thought it was only a matter of time before UND moved to DI. With Kupchella's "modest proposal" being shot down by the NCAA, and the Associate AD in charge of development, Rob Bollinger,  is currently a finalist for the head of the Bemidi State Foundation- http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandf...s/13624253.htm, I now have serious doubts. Obviously, he has no problem tackling new challenges, and wants to stay in the fundraising arena, so why does he want to leave? He's served in some capacity or another at UND for a while, including coaching football. UND fans have stated previously that if there's one person that cannot be lost if UND moves to DI, it would be Bollinger.

[SiouxFallsJack]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

A couple of days late, but here are the two articles about und in the Sunday Argus.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs...1/1002/ARCHIVE

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs...7/1002/ARCHIVE

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

Does any have access or seen the intercepted letter between Kupachella and BSC Commish Doug Fullerton?

How did the Fargo Forum get access to this letter? I guess I missed something here.

[OK_Jackrabbit]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

I don't know for sure how they got the letter, but I have a guess. Unlike South Dakota, North Dakota actually has a semi-functional open records law. The president of UND would be subject to that law and with a few exceptions his correspondence would be open records. When I worked for the Fargo Forum, I used that law many times to access information. It worked pretty well.

South Dakota, by the way, has one of the worst open records (and open meetings) laws in the country. For some reason, we're comfortable with our representatives in state and local governments keeping secrets from us.

[bisonbacker]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

Does any have access or seen the intercepted letter between Kupachella and BSC Commish Doug Fullerton?

How did the Fargo Forum get access to this letter? I guess I missed something here.

I've not seen the letter but I will tell you this much. The folks to the North of us seem to think the BSC is drooling all over them to move up and then the invite will just be waiting there. They are so full of themselves that it is actually very comical. The BSC has made it clear that they are not interested especially given the fact that the (I use the following term very loosely) leadership to the school to the north has made it clear in the past they would not move up without a conference invite. The BSC would never extend an invite to a school that has not made the move up so given the two positions its pretty clear there is no future unless something was to change. The BSC isn't going to change their position so that leaves old kup-o-jello to go back and change his arrogant attitude. The other factor and I would say the bigger issue for the susies is the $$ question. Given they are already in the red at DII how are they going to be able to afford a move up. Old Ralph isn't around anymore to bail out their sorry asses so they would have to come up with the money and the taxpayers had ought not have to pay for their ego driven desires to move up. NDSU raised the money without the taxpayers having to pay anymore. Another key question is that one of the major fundraisers at undii is a finalist for a job at Bemidji and if he gets the job it will seriously hurt the already huge job of trying to raise the funds for such a move which I really don't think they can or should make. With that being said I have a hunch that they will do it anyway they can if they have to beg, borrow or steal to do it. Regarding NDSU and SDSU the heat would be on NDSU's leadership in a way nobody has seen if they caved to any request to exclude SDSU and include in any way undii.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

From what I understand, the Ralph Englestad estate namely Betty and family still hold title to the REA ice arena and are still very visiable in the operations of the athletic department at UND. I know one of the many hoops Ralph had to jump through in providing the ice arena to UND was to show the ND legislature, that the new facility would not be of any cost to the state of ND including maintanence, and for that reason the REA corporation is still running the ice arena. To me this big gift really complicated things. If Ralph had written a check for 100 million and given it to UND foundation and said: Here is the cash, you build it, things would have been less complicated than they appear now.

I think this whole ice arrangement really complicates matters for UND. I suspect this is the biggest reason Kupachella has been adament about staying D2.

I am a little surprised with Chris Solari mentioning this letter in his article as I wonder how relevant is it now?

It going on two years old and the fact that they are kind of messing around with an internal study also suggests a lack of objectivity in making the right conclusions. The Carr studies for SDSU and NDSU were not boiler plate like some UND fans have claimed, but rather highlighted the differences in each institution. UND is different from NDSU and SDSU, why not spend the 30 to 40k to have an outside source make the study.

[Siouxpreme]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

I've not seen the letter but I will tell you this much.  The folks to the North of us seem to think the BSC is drooling all over them to move up and then the invite will just be waiting there.  They are so full of themselves that it is actually very comical.  The BSC has made it clear that they are not interested especially given the fact that the (I use the following term very loosely) leadership to the school to the north has made it clear in the past they would not move up without a conference invite.  The BSC would never extend an invite to a school that has not made the move up so given the two positions its pretty clear there is no future unless something was to change.  The BSC isn't going to change their position so that leaves old kup-o-jello to go back and change his arrogant attitude.

Typical NDSU talk - those guys are always underestimating UND's capabilities. Something that doesn't get talked about but probably should - if Montana or Montana State were interested in adding another sport that can make those schools some money, what sport would be added? If the word hockey is mentioned, NDSU fans will start squealing again, but Bozeman has a NAHL that is successful. For both schools, they can either add hockey or go DIA in football, but not both. Why wouldn't Montana and MSU seriously consider hockey - considering they have prime recruiting territory just north of them and an existing fan base. And if their longer term plans were to add hockey, wouldn't they want UND as an ally?

The other factor and I would say the bigger issue for the susies is the $$ question.  Given they are already in the red at DII how are they going to be able to afford a move up.  Old Ralph isn't around anymore to bail out their sorry asses so they would have to come up with the money and the taxpayers had ought not have to pay for their ego driven desires to move up.  NDSU raised the money without the taxpayers having to pay anymore.  Another key question is that one of the major fundraisers at undii is a finalist for a job at Bemidji and if he gets the job it will seriously hurt the already huge job of trying to raise the funds for such a move which I really don't think they can or should make.  With that being said I have a hunch that they will do it anyway they can if they have to beg, borrow or steal to do it.  Regarding NDSU and SDSU the heat would be on NDSU's leadership in a way nobody has seen if they caved to any request to exclude SDSU and include in any way undii.

UND has at least two alums that have almost as deep of pockets as the Engelstads. Not saying anything big is going to happen, but most people gasped when they found out about the REA gift as that level of giving was totally unexpected.

[Siouxpreme]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

From what I understand, the Ralph Englestad estate namely Betty and family still hold title to the REA ice arena and are still very visiable in the operations of the athletic department at UND. I know one of the many hoops Ralph had to jump through in providing the ice arena to UND was to show the ND legislature, that the new facility would not be of any cost to the state of ND including maintanence, and for that reason the REA corporation is still running the ice arena. To me this big gift really complicated things. If Ralph had written a check for 100 million and given it to UND foundation and said: Here is the cash, you build it, things would have been less complicated than they appear now.

The REA title has been turned over to a charitable corporation.

I think this whole ice arrangement really complicates matters for UND. I suspect this is the biggest reason Kupachella has been adament about staying D2.

I am a little surprised with Chris Solari mentioning this letter in his article as I wonder how relevant is it now?

It going on two years old and the fact that they are kind of messing around with an internal study also suggests a lack of objectivity in making the right conclusions.  The Carr studies for SDSU and NDSU were not boiler plate like some UND fans have claimed, but rather highlighted the differences in each institution. UND is different from NDSU and SDSU, why not spend the 30 to 40k to have an outside source make the study.

Know for a fact that a consultant has been hired this time.

[bisonbacker]

Re: Today's 1/15/2006  Sunday Argus and UND

Why wouldn't Montana and MSU seriously consider hockey - considering they have prime recruiting territory just north of them and an existing fan base. And if their longer term plans were to add hockey, wouldn't they want UND as an ally?

Dream on siouxage supreme. Typical undii talk. If you have such great financial backing why are you in the red in DII. You can't afford where you are right now and you want to move up? Guess its no different then grand forks begging for money during the flood for infrastructure improvements for the city all the while your spending money on the hilarious center. Sounds like you should take care of business at home first before you go begging to the taxpayers to in reality pay for your hilarious center. undii on welfare is exactly what it amounted to. How are you going to pull it off this time, there isn't any flood to blame it on this time.