DI ATTENDENCE

[JACKGUYII]

What is everyone's opinion on why attendence is down significantly for Basketball. We all know some of the reasons such as no longer mens and womens games on same night, poor home schedule,weather,unfamaliarity with incoming teams,lack of conference,losing team,students out for break during many of home games,no longer playing instate rivals. I'm sure there are countless others. It seems there is a core group of around 1100 that will show up no matter what. I believe the season ticket holder number is just over 1000 for basketball and we know they don't make every game. Are there people staying away because they are still upset over the move to DI? Would love to hear from those folks on what it would take to get them back. Is the administration doing everything they can to get people to the games? I think winning and getting into a conference will solve many of the attendence issues we are experiencing. Frost looks better than ever before with more improvements on the way and I think the marketing people continue to make adjustments that add to the overall experience of the game with skits,games during timeouts,half time entertainment etc. If we were consulting the Athletic Department what initiatives would we suggest to get people back to Jacks Basketball games.  

[jackmd]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Win and they will come. A conference affiliation should also help. You must remember that our attendance numbers in the past often reflected a large number of fans for the opposition because, as everyone in SD knows, the best atmosphere for a BB in the state of SD is Frost arena.

With teams coming from greater distances we can't count on 1000 plus fans. If this team turns things around the numbers will rise again. 3500 avg seems realistic in the near future.

[filbert]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

People will turn out for games if they think there is a competitive product on the floor. Look at women's attendance--it's been pretty good (1,578 per game). The men's team (which, to be honest, has basically not been competitive the first half of the year) has drawn 1,858/game. A competitive men's team could and should be drawing close to 3,000 per game. A winning SDSU men's team should be expected to draw 4-5,000 per game.

I think there's also an unfamiliarity factor at work. Two reasons for this: first, not being a conference member means that SD fans have no opportunity to become familiar with a set of regular D-I opponents. Conference games, at all levels, are generally better attended than non-conference games.

Also, the upgraded home schedule also means that a lot of schools that SD fans simply don't recognize are coming into Frost. Utah Valley State is a pretty obscure school, after all.

Let's face it, once you get past Duke, Kansas, UCLA, and the Gophers, SD fans are simply unfamiliar with the majority of D-I. They probably know more about Metro State than they are with the U. of Denver, for instance.

[SiouxFallsJack]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Good points jackmd, I've only thought about our fans attending the games and forgotten the number of fans the visiting team would bring in. Also you are correct with the win and they will come. Put a winning product on the floor and the fans will return. There are fans still upset with the move to DI and until we can start winning it may be tough to get them back, although finding a conference will be a step in the right direction.

I hate to use it as an excuse, but we have had unfavorable weather for a few of the games. The only two mens home games I have missed were the Fullerton St. and Denver games and it was very cold attending the Texas St. and Alabama womens games.

The seperation of the mens/womens games creates the same problem we had with football games this year. So many home games one has to pick and choose the games to attend. I try to attend every home game and even though I am only an hour away, that many more trips to Brookings does add up. I do consider myself fortunate when compared to diehards as jackmd, 89rabbit, filbert, and many others who have much greater distances to travel than I.

Now for a couple of positive points. I like having the news teams on our schedule. Other than games against usd, Augie, and the North Dakota schools, I enjoyed attending the other non-conference DII games on our schedule than the other teams in the NCC. With the new teams it gives me the chance to learn about different schools throughout the country and I hope they learn about SDSU and South Dakota as well.

I am encouraged in the games I have attended to see more students this year. With the remaining home games being winnable or at worst competitive, we should see more students and other fans returning to Frost.

[HoboD]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Top 10 things State can do to increase attendance:

10. Schedule as many games as possible when students are on campus. The students are the most vocal and fire up the team the most.

9. Schedule a combined men/womens game or two. Why not against NDSU? This helps bring in people from a distance like myself who have 150+ miles to get to Frost because I can catch 2 games instead of 1.

8. Radio network statewide. This will increase fan interest and that will increase attendance.

7. Televise 2 games a year. (Those during the Xmas break would keep students in touch.)

6. Saturday/Sunday afternoon games. Allows people to drive in to Brookings, see the game and still get home at a decent time. Believe me driving 190 miles after an evening game is a deterrant to the idea of going to a game. Many, many D-1 programs run weekend afternoon games.

5. Conference affiliation. A home and home league of all independent teams would help fill the void until a conference is found.

4. A south dakota presence on the teams. This is critical. South Dakotan will come out to see South Dakota kids play. Yes, we want the best team we can get, but the reality is to make this work you have to fill seats and South Dakota kids playing does that. 1-2 will do the trick.

3. A holiday tournament for both men and women.
Men and Women invite 3 other teams at Frost.
First day, semis, States men and women play their semis in the evening. On day 2, womens and mens finals are in the evening, 3rd place mens and womens in the afternoon. Get a sponsor to help pay opposing team expenses (Daktronics, Premiere?)

2. Inflate attendance like the U.

1. Win baby win!

[Jacks99]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

#1 - have a winning season and keep all games close. The rest will fall into place.

[NorCalJack]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

9.  Schedule a combined men/womens game or two.  Why not against NDSU?  This helps bring in people from a distance like myself who have 150+ miles to get to Frost because I can catch 2 games instead of 1.

I went back and looked at attendance of the NDSU games during the NCC days and during the transition period.  In '03-'04 the women had 2,815 in attendance and the men had 4,113.  I assume that the 2,815 people were counted twice and are included in the 4,113.  So these two games had a paid attendance of 4,113.

In '04-'05, the women had 4,739 in attendance and the men had 4,281.  The total attendance for these two games is 9,020, or 4,887 more than the double header games.

I know the fans like double headers, but it does not generate as much revenue for the university as single games.

Go State!!! ;D ;D ;D

[NorCalJack]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Well I dug a little deeper and thought this warranted a separate post.

In '03-'04 the men and women had 13 double header home games and 5 single games, for a total of 31 home games. On a night that a double header was played, I took the total attendance for both games to be the attendance of the men's game. For '03-'04 SDSU had 58,632 paid attendance for 31 games, or 1,890 per game.

This year the women have an attendance of 8,576 in 6 games, or 1,430/game. They still have 6 home games left, of which one is the NDSU game, which drew 4,739 last year. If they continue to average 1,430/game for the 5 Non-NDSU games and draw 4,500 for the NDSU, they will have 20,000 paid attendance for 12 games. This is an average of 1,667 per game.

This year the men have an attendance of 17,627 in 9 games, or 1,960/game. They still have 4 home games left, of which one is the NDSU game, which drew 4,281 last year. If they continue to average 1,960/game for the 3 Non-NDSU games and draw 4,500 for the NDSU game, they will have 28,000 paid attendance for 13 games.

If you combine the men and women's projected attendance for this year, they will draw 48,000 paid attendance in 25 games or 1,920 per game. This is more paid attendance per game than we were drawing during our last year in the NCC, which was 1,890.

So as I said before, having double header games really does hurt the university in terms of revenue.

The real key to increasing attendance is to have more games. These games should not be double header games either. Having a conference will help increase the number of home games, provided they are not double headers.

Go State!!! ;D ;D ;D

[JACKGUYII]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

I had not done the research, but had a gut feeling the information you found regarding single games vs double headers having more net attendence and revenue was going to be the case.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Wow! Nice work NorCal. Everyone is making great points on this post.

I do have to say that I don't like some of the games during the breaks in the action. Although cute and amusing, they seem to let the air out of the crowd, IMO.

I like the cowbell skit and now cartoons on the video screen. Not related to attendance, but what about running "greatest moments" clips on the video screens. Scenes from old games with coach/player/announcer commentary would be neat. I think that would be a cool way to get the crowd excited. They could even make it a sponsored thing, like "Great Moments in SDSU history presented by Aramark."

I would also like to see more action on TV. Maybe even a weekly show of some sort. I know this is terribly expensive, but I think it would pay big dividends in the long term.

Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think we will ever get back to the days of 8,000 fans at a game. Not because of support, but simply because of changes made to seating at Frost. There are less seats than there used to be, and the plans I have heard call for more seating reductions. Not saying that is good or bad, just what's happening.

Something on attendance at the SF Arena game. I have talked to several people who said they planned to go to the game with groups of 4 or more, but when they went online to buy tickets it showed the only seats available in the nosebleeds. I think this cost us a lot in terms of attendance there. If I hadn't gone up to the Arena to buy them in person, I might have fell victim to the same situation.

[mitchellrabbit]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

if you look at what ndsu is drawing this yr, it isnt any better than the jackrabbits. i also for the fun of it, looked at a few of other lower majors and some of their attendance was worse yet. i like the idea of a couple men/woman doubleheaders. winning or losing, im gonna be at the games, cause i like basketball and i like the jacks. and i still say, 4800 for a usd/augie game was an embarrassment to those schools. theres no reason they shouldnt have filled the place.

[HoboD]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Ok I buy your theory on more revenue for double headers, but one or two a year? Yes, the two crowds of 2,100 each would beat a double header of 4,000 but ask the players which they would rather play in front of!
Especially if you picked maybe a lesser know opponent. Those are the games you would stive to bring recruits to. It least it would get some atmosphere going in Frost.

How about the weekend afternoon games?

[mitchellrabbit]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

sunday afternoon i was switching channels and ran across a womans game between so cal and arizona being played at usc. it looked like they were playing in a high school gym. i see on usc's website, their attendance was a little over 800 for the game.

[SDSUFAN]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

Wow! Nice work NorCal.  Everyone is making great points on this post.

I do have to say that I don't like some of the games during the breaks in the action.   Although cute and amusing, they seem to let the air out of the crowd, IMO.

I like the cowbell skit and now cartoons on the video screen.  Not related to attendance, but what about running "greatest moments"  clips on the video screens.  Scenes from old games with coach/player/announcer commentary would be neat.  I think that would be a cool way to get the crowd excited.  They could even make it a sponsored thing, like "Great Moments in SDSU history presented by Aramark."

I would also like to see more action on TV.  Maybe even a weekly show of some sort.  I know this is terribly expensive, but I think it would pay big dividends in the long term.

Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think we will ever get back to the days of 8,000 fans at a game.  Not because of support, but simply because of changes made to seating at Frost.  There are less seats than there used to be, and the plans I have heard call for more seating reductions.  Not saying that is good or bad, just what's happening.

Something on attendance at the SF Arena game.  I have talked to several people who said they planned to go to the game with groups of 4 or more, but when they went online to buy tickets it showed the only seats available in the nosebleeds.  I think this cost us a lot in terms of attendance there.  If I hadn't gone up to the Arena to buy them in person, I might have fell victim to the same situation.

I agree NorCal's analysis is very interesting. The numbers under separate games this year look better based on what he presented in his post. I know at NDSU and UND a few years back, they had fans who came only for women's game and left when the women's game was over.  This was back when they both had D2 National championships back to back and big winners and their men's program were so-so. I recall a couple of UNO games, where Sapp was filled with young kids, who no doubt got in free and left after women's game was over.  I have no idea how they counted attendence at that game.

So sometimes when there are promotions and free passes, which can affect the attendence tota.You never know who and how many leave after the first game of a double hitter. So single games give us probably a more accruate count.

Outside of having canvassing people outside the door asking questions, you probably would never have any idea on how many left after the women's game. At SDSU I dont think it ever was a factor. The men's game seems to draw more despite our struggles and I think a number of casual fans have not seen the women play.

As far as decreasing seating at Frost, I recall a conversation with Dr. Oien several years ago, and he told me that the trend particularily at D2 was to have smaller facilities built so that the standing room only problem could develope. He said this was the kind of problem that most administrators wanted to have.
I suspect that this thinking has had its hands in the recent updates at Frost.  I dont see any advantage in having a 10,000 seating capacity if its all old and hard bleachers. The back chairs have a fan comfort aspect and can be a drawing factor, especially in my age range.

I caugth the WDAY radio program in Fargo the other night and Jeff Kolpeck of the Fargo mentioned that adding more back chairs at Bison Sports arena would help along with other things to improve NDSU attendence. In fact Jeff was impling, that BSA should be more like Frost Arena. Hows that for a compliement from a knowing person in the media?

I think we need the entertainment part especially for families with small children. I think for the parents who have scormy 2-5 year olds, the Rabbit cartoons are a very good thing. Plus we get new fans at a very early age. These little people are going to be big SDSU fans before too long, so we can't ignore them.

I think we need to encourage the cowbells more and more. I have one and brought to the last game. Its hard on your wrist. ;D. It would be nice to have the cowbells as an intimidating factor as it was at the SDSC Field House or informally known as the "Barn".

$$$$$$$$$ is the key here and I have no idea where we stand offically with the budget projections. Are we up or are down? One healthy aspect from a financial point of view would be an increase in season ticket holders. To my way of thinking that increase would be pure money in the bank. The people dont need to show up. ;D

We do have a long ways to go in the D1 era, and I will not despute the Win factor. Its very big. Promoting any way can will also add to our success. I hope I am not rubberstamping here, but I do think we are on the right track, and Craig and Mike can have all the fun they want with their remarks. Who cares, as I dont bother to listen any more to KWSN, internet or live.

[Jacks99]

Re: DI ATTENDENCE

I'm not sure how it plays into the DI picture, but keep in mind if you have 4,000 at a DH you have 2,000 extra people that aren't at the single headers. Where are these 2,000 now? It's obvious the casual fan is not there this year. Also I'd rather be at a game with 4,000 fans than 2,000. However, I like the single games as well, especially on the weekend. My vote is to find a few games a year to make double headers and publicize them well. Maybe make the SF game a double header. Especially the NDSU game at Frost, that could be big.

As for the cowbells, the coaches know they can ask the ref to stop using them during play. However, the students can ring them during a time-out right in front of the oponents bench.

I commented about the U/augie game in another thread, but also think it was poor attendance, even worse than our game.