Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

FirstRowFANatic:

Here's your proof-

...

Now granted, this does not -=prove=-

...

That was my point, it is likely that they wouldn't have been competitive, but you can't prove teams would or would not have been.

[Cowbell]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

SDSU made it to Elite 8 twice since 1991. As I stated in my previous post, the last competitive team was UND (at least in my recollection) in 1991 when they took third place (they still played a consolation game back then). The key word is "competitive." By the way, many of the teams we saw play in the DII Elite Eight have now gone DI. It isn't the same anymore.

[bub94]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Actually, SDSU made it to the Elite 8 after 1991. Don't remember the year but Fort Hayes State was the number 1 team and had to travel to SDSU (more centrally located). SDSU upset the number 1 team (Fort Hayes State had a player who was back-to-back player of the year in Division II on that team). I stood outside Frost since noon to get in at 6 (it was frickin cold that day too). The only time we sat was during halftime.

[Cowbell]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Bingo! I think the last competitive team from the NCC to the Elite 8 was UND in about 1991. Otherwise it was one and done.

[LakeJack]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Frankly, I think quite a few of us Jackrabbit fans completely missed the boat on basketball competitiveness. I recall asserting that SDSU, while certainly not good enough to be a top 25 team in D-1, was at least good enough to be around the top 100 mark.

That, honestly, is what our cozy little NCC with its huge stack of records and its 'too big for the pond' schools coaxed us into thinking.

This is how I feel about the whole how would the NCC in its hayday fair against D-I talk. I know I thought the NCC was better then it was.

[FargoBison]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Anyway, What you see with NDSU is an example of how tough it is to 'break into' MBB: NDSU has the most talented team that they have EVER had, and are looking for a #13 seed, maybe-------MAYBE a #12, depending on how the conference tournaments go in the Summit's peer group.

Are you high? I'm not saying that NDSU hasn't had a good transition, but they are in no ways what I'd consider a 13 seed. A team that's biggest win is over UW-Milwaulke is not in position to get much higher then a 14 seed if they are luckey.... You have to look at some of there losses... Idaho, Steven F. Austin, They were took into OT by UMKC and SDSU, they lost to SUU at home. there quality losses would be Minnesota by about the same margin that we lost to them, and USC who they lost to by 4.... I'm not saying they are bad but the only reason they have a good record is because they are cleaing up in the conference and the reason they are doing that is because they have 4 5 year seniors...

Here is my question, does anybody think that if NDSU doesn't win the conference tournament that they will get in? ORU I think has a chance if they don't because of how strong of schedule they play but I don't see NDSU getting in unless they win the conference tournament.

SFA has an RPI rating of 106 and beat NDSU by 1 point in three overtimes. Idaho has an RPI of about 136 and has 3 top 100 wins, they beat NDSU by 8 at home. NDSU has one bad loss to SUU and that is about it.

No team from the Summit has a chance of getting an at large, last year IUPUI had 23-7 record, an RPI in the 70s, and didn't even get into the NIT.

[zooropa]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

I don't see NDSU getting in unless they win the conference tournament.

What I wrote:

how the conference tournaments go in the Summit's peer group.

This does not refer to the Summit League tournament.

This refers to upsets in conferences that are in the Summit's general neighborhood (MAC, Sun Belt, Southland, Ohio Valley, America East, etc.)

If conference champs from these conferences are their tournament's respective #2/3 seeds, it puts NDSU in a position to move up simply because there are more AQs with worse records.

Bear in mind that only 12 of 31 conferences have first place teams that are currently good enough to enter as at-larges. That means that the other 19 AQ conferences are going to fill out spaces 46-65 or, give or take, the #12-16 seeds in each bracket.

Thus, if there are a few upsets in conferences better than the Summit, NDSU could =MAYBE= get a 12 seed.

[joeboo22]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Anyway, What you see with NDSU is an example of how tough it is to 'break into' MBB: NDSU has the most talented team that they have EVER had, and are looking for a #13 seed, maybe-------MAYBE a #12, depending on how the conference tournaments go in the Summit's peer group.[/QUOTE]

Are you high? I'm not saying that NDSU hasn't had a good transition, but they are in no ways what I'd consider a 13 seed. A team that's biggest win is over UW-Milwaulke is not in position to get much higher then a 14 seed if they are luckey.... You have to look at some of there losses... Idaho, Steven F. Austin, They were took into OT by UMKC and SDSU, they lost to SUU at home. there quality losses would be Minnesota by about the same margin that we lost to them, and USC who they lost to by 4.... I'm not saying they are bad but the only reason they have a good record is because they are cleaing up in the conference and the reason they are doing that is because they have 4 5 year seniors...

Here is my question, does anybody think that if NDSU doesn't win the conference tournament that they will get in? ORU I think has a chance if they don't because of how strong of schedule they play but I don't see NDSU getting in unless they win the conference tournament.

[Nidaros]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Actually, Jacks have played D-1 teams many times, maybe some before there was a D-1. And the record, as you would expect, is not that great. According to media guide:

- lost to UCLA in 1959 (was John Wooden coaching then?)
- lost to colorado in 1946 and 1947
- 4-1 all-time against Cornell of the Ivy League
- 3-20 all time against Creighton
- 1-1 all time against DePaul, playing them in 1930 and 1968
- lost to Florida State in 1957
- 1-6 all time against Iowa, having last played them in '62 (However, Jacks owned Iowa Pre-Flight in the 1940s)
- 1-5 all time against Iowa State with this season's victory
- 0-3 all-time against Kansas State
- 0-2 all time against Kansas, last playing them in '85
- 0-12 all time against Minnesota, counting this season. Time to break that string.
- lost to Memphis State in '71
- 0-2 against Texas Tech, last having played in 1972
- lost to Utah in 1963
- Lost to Michigan in 1958 and 1989

However, you'll be happy to note Jacks of early 20th Century were undefeated against Spearfish, Arlington, Deadwood, Redfield (beat Redfield three times in '07-'08 season). Took out Belle Fourche twice in 1922.

NoVaJack:

Your analysis above is very correct in stating that SDSU does not have an impressive all time record against D1 schools.

The UCLA game you cited about in 1959 was actually against Los Angles State and it was a first round game in the College Division elite eight, as the media guide states that the game was played in Evansville Indiana. Thats were the tournament was played in those days. Los Angles State is now known as Cal State Los Angles and still is D2. I vaguely remember this game as we got beat rather soundly and the coach was a different kind of guy who love experiment with odd stuff such as built up soles on shoes in order to gain a height advantage. I dont recall his name. Unfortunately, Cal State U- Los Angles offical site does not have a media guide to download.

The Cornell mentioned probably is the Cornell College of Iowa that was and may still be in what is called the Midwest League. This Cornell is located in eastern Iowa, not sure of the town, but the Midwest conference used to compete in the College Division, but after 1973, they chose to go D3 and not offer scholarships. That conference was pretty decent and included Coe, Knox and Carthage. All very prestiguious private schools. Until USD played Cornell this year, I dont think any SD school has played the Ivy League Cornell located in New York.

In scanning through the SDSU media guide we lost to Mo Iba's Oklahoma State by seven pts in 1968. I belive Jim Marking liked to talk about that game and how close they got to beating a coaching legend. Mo is a legend. Also we played Wyoming and got clobbered. The record at least in my opinion supports that we are probably playing at our highest level in terms of competition with the Summit League and the past does not indicate that we were anything near a giant killer. There has always been a gulf between what we know now as D2 and D1 and its growing not shrinking. I don't think there are any weak members in the Summit League. The SL plays better defense than was played in the NCC and the offense and quickness does not compare with the NCC. Grizzled Jack is correct, the NCC did not have a great deal of quickness.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

It wasn't so much about the teams in the NCC making it to the Elite 8, it was the fact that they were some of the toughest teams to beat. Every year there were 3-5 teams who were all very good. There were always at least 2-3 teams in the regional tourney from the NCC. I would consider that an elite MBB conference.

As for comparing past teams and current teams, you just can't do it. Different styles of play, divisions, changes to the game (ex. 3 point line). You can compare players if they remind you of how someone used to play. I just don't follow the 'greatest of all time' comparisons people make when talking about NBA players, MLB players, and NFL players.

Boy, someone bringing up Q's name. Damn, he was so much fun to watch. He could pick any point guard when he wanted. I used to laugh at his little head shake towards his opponent.

I'll give you that the NCC had parity. There were no easy road or home games in the NCC (besides Morningside ). But the NCC lacked the Elite teams.

[zooropa]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

FirstRowFANatic:

Here's your proof-

Kennesaw State - 2004 D-II National Champion is 7-17 with a RPI of 337. They are 1-11 on the road. '04 was our last year in D-II and the NCC.

Kennesaw State went D-1 in 2005/06
2006: 249
2007: 277
2008: 322

Note that Kennesaw State:

1) Won a championship in D-2 (no 90s era NCC team did that)
2) Had a middling RPI vs. Summit teams in 2006
3) Has gone down hill every year since.

Now granted, this does not -=prove=- that "Top tier NCC teams in the 90s couldn't compete in the Summit League", however, it shows what kind of threshold of D-2 achievement would be necessary to compete with lower tier Summit League teams in 2006. It's a short leap of logic to conclude that a conference that sent only one team to the elite 8 (SDSU, 1997) in the 90s would have struggled in the Summit.

Granted, it IS a leap of logic, but without any head-to-head competitions, we're left with inferences, and none of the inferences support the assertion.

[bub94]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Despite what people want to think, the NCC has never been an elite MBB conference. When was the last time an NCC men's team made the Elite 8? I honestly don't know. I think USD made it in the early to mid 90s.

It wasn't so much about the teams in the NCC making it to the Elite 8, it was the fact that they were some of the toughest teams to beat. Every year there were 3-5 teams who were all very good. There were always at least 2-3 teams in the regional tourney from the NCC. I would consider that an elite MBB conference.

As for comparing past teams and current teams, you just can't do it. Different styles of play, divisions, changes to the game (ex. 3 point line). You can compare players if they remind you of how someone used to play. I just don't follow the 'greatest of all time' comparisons people make when talking about NBA players, MLB players, and NFL players. SDSU did play Michigan in 1989, the year Michigan won the NCAA title. The game was actually close at halftime, but Michigan came out the second half. At first I thought the year we played Michigan was when Meister, Wallace, and Norberg played but I changed my mind. Dick Vitale actually discussed that team on ESPN one night (during that year). Made me snap my head when he talked about Meister and Wallace from North Dakota State. WHAT!!!!!! That is what made me snap my head to the TV so fast.

Boy, someone bringing up Q's name. Damn, he was so much fun to watch. He could pick any point guard when he wanted. I used to laugh at his little head shake towards his opponent.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Despite what people want to think, the NCC has never been an elite MBB conference. When was the last time an NCC men's team made the Elite 8? I honestly don't know. I think USD made it in the early to mid 90s.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

No way, and how do you approve your assertion other than to say its so? The whole point of my post was that even the high points of the NCC history do not I repeat do not match the current talent of the Summit. If this was true, then why are there no more than 2 national champs and both were a long time ago. How many years since 1958? 51? 1963? 46. So how could the best in the NCC compete in the Summit?

I remember SDSU playing in the D2 regionals against SE Missouri (in the eighties, know I should check but I'm too lazy). The comment in the St. Louis Post Dispatch was that the Jackrabbits, despite their name were woefully slow-- read between the lines, probably a bunch of slow footed Norwegian farm boys. Thank god, South Dakota is less openly racist and less pure white Norwegian goodness than it was when I went there in the sixties. Bout time-- bring on the diversity-- shows the state is gaining vitality.

However, I think of the NCC as being a bit-too whitebread to be one of the better D2 conferences--football, yes-- not basketball. The MIAA game I fleetingly watched yesterday looked a lot faster than I remember the NCC being. North Dakota State proves such teams can win up to a point, but something tells me that they'll have a bit o'trouble if they draw a three or four seed in the NCAA's.

It's a lightning fast urban game, much more than I remember at least. The other thing to remember in looking back at the good (really) old days was that most of the teams we now consider as mid-majors were NCAA College Division teams. Most of the teams in the Valley: (Southwest) Missouri State, Evansville, Northern Iowa (SCI), Southern Illinois were not considered major colleges at all. They simply moved up a lot quicker than SDSU did. I think SEMO was another laggard, but they certainly jumped to the OVC long before the Jackrabbits.

[NoVaJack]

Re: Cal Poly-Official Game Thread

Actually, Jacks have played D-1 teams many times, maybe some before there was a D-1. And the record, as you would expect, is not that great. According to media guide:

- lost to UCLA in 1959 (was John Wooden coaching then?)
- lost to colorado in 1946 and 1947
- 4-1 all-time against Cornell of the Ivy League
- 3-20 all time against Creighton
- 1-1 all time against DePaul, playing them in 1930 and 1968
- lost to Florida State in 1957
- 1-6 all time against Iowa, having last played them in '62 (However, Jacks owned Iowa Pre-Flight in the 1940s)
- 1-5 all time against Iowa State with this season's victory
- 0-3 all-time against Kansas State
- 0-2 all time against Kansas, last playing them in '85
- 0-12 all time against Minnesota, counting this season. Time to break that string.
- lost to Memphis State in '71
- 0-2 against Texas Tech, last having played in 1972
- lost to Utah in 1963
- Lost to Michigan in 1958 and 1989

However, you'll be happy to note Jacks of early 20th Century were undefeated against Spearfish, Arlington, Deadwood, Redfield (beat Redfield three times in '07-'08 season). Took out Belle Fourche twice in 1922.