Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

[bub94]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

Now that I'm back to my own computer I will comment. Very nice win for the men's team and a great way to head into a little break for them. Most of the team will be heading home (from a post, I believe Kai wasn't going to make it home). Saw Kai's interview on KSFY (I liked that KSFY actually showed the highlights on both Tues. and Weds. along with Kai's interview). Kelo-land was more interested in showing ISU hightlights that they only showed one shot made by the Jacks (Clint's 3-pointer). I will be watching more sports reports on KSFY.

Again, good jobs guys on the nice win. Hope this keeps your spirits high for the second half of the year (and hope it works on the fans too).

[zooropa]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

Avis attitude? Whats that about?

Don't you remember?


The Jacks will never carry a natural talent advantage into a BCS arena--or at least they won't for several years.

Because of that, they have to work the fundamentals, they have to remember the old line "When you're number two, you have to try harder"

Going into a lot of games, the Jacks are going to be #2. The only shot they've got to win is to play the fundamentals better.

[zooropa]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

I think the talent level between men and women are not the same. There Big Dances involve fewer dollars and thus the competition for talent is more intense in the men's program. Besides I really dont think we have that many D1 candidates as compared to D2 people. Nagy in my opinion has had a much harder challenge than AJ.

I disagree almost entirely with this assertion.

I agree that physically there is a smaller gap in women's basketball.

I also agree that 15 scholarships vs. 12 makes a difference in recruiting.

However, I disagree with the competition for talent aspect. Why?

Because you have schools that take WBB seriously and that aggregate talent becoming perennial powerhouses (Tennessee, Connecticut). These teams are as hard to knock off as any MBB powerhouse. Harder, in fact, because they take WBB seriously where so many other schools with big budgets treat WBB as an afterthought.

The lack of money, IMO, has created a smaller group of 'super majors'. It hasn't made it -=easier=- to succeed. Both M & W polls are routinely populated with BCS schools, perhaps even more so in WBB.

Furthermore, I think it's a mistake to assert that the state (or region) has fewer 'D1' players in MBB.

Why?

Because we're comparing two very very very different styles of coaching (up until this season).

If AJ didn't have Rotert, Cornemann, Oistad, Michelson, Warkenthien, etc. all together, I think you'd have a hard time making a case that any of them were D-1 talents. But together, they make a compelling case for each other.

These girls, none of them are Candace Parker--and I think it's extremely unfair to hold Cordova (for instance) up against the best 4s and 5s in college basketball and argue that "SD has fewer D-1 caliber players in MBB"

Far better to let the seasons play out, and see what Nagy does with the talent he recruits going forward, than to cherry pick examples and say, 'so and so isn't a D-1 player' all on his own.

[JimmyJack]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

Those seven seniors in my opinion, really slowed down the the recruiting that should have taken place in the last 2 years of D2.

Thank you for saying that. It has been mentioned here several times in the past, but some people seem to forget it. We had some SIXTH year seniors on that last D2 squad (medical redshirts in addition to normal redshirts). So going into D1, you lose seven seniors. Anybody seen a team lose seven seniors and compete well at a higher level the next year? Obviously, you're going to start from nothing. Then you lose a bunch of players to injuries and other oddball circumstances in the years that followed.

What we're seeing now is the first real "team" Coach Nagy has had to work with. And we're seeing progress. Once we're back on a normal rotation of players into and out of the program (we're not quite there yet) I predict continued improvement over time. I think we're going to finish in the middle of the Summit League this year. Next year, with White and Fiegen and with a "real" senior class, we'll be tough.

[zooropa]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

other oddball circumstances

It's the 'other oddball circumstances' that I fault Nagy for. The caliber of player he recruited was (on average) suspect during the first years of the transition.

Granted, some of that is because there were some players they flat couldn't recruit because of the transition, but it's not all because of that.

I think that the Callahan/Williams/Cordova class was the beginning of a turnaround but that Nagy didn't finish the job until he switched to the 4-guard offense this year. That 3 year gap between the first solid D-1 recruiting class and the adoption of (IMO) a winning D-1 coaching strategy is the other failing I'd hang on Nagy.

However, as I've said before, that's in the past. There's no point in hanging Nagy -now- for things that he's already corrected.

[cydave]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

Yeah, but your guy Morgan was possibly engaged in some shady activities to land those recruits.

Besides, you replaced Morgan in about 10 days, and it didn't prevent those players from leaving.

Also, my point about home state and loyalties only works if you're the biggest fish in the state. If Iowa offered even more to McDermott and he bolted for them, would you look at that as "an opportunity to play on an even bigger stage"?

Regarding Chizik, yeah, coordinators tend to move around a lot, but I'd argue that Chizik was particularly bouncy. He only stayed for one full recruiting class in one place: SFA. I would sincerely question any prospective head coach's ability to manage the whole student-athlete experience if he's never recruited and developed the same players.

Oh, and one more note--it seems Pollard wanted Chizik, period, end of story. At least that's what his ISU sanctioned web page says.

It just, I don't know, seems like the wrong way to go about digging yourself out of a hole--to (in Chizik's case) have someone in mind before you interview anyone, or to (in Rhoad's case, or McDermott's) give the appearance of reacting instead of taking control of the situation away from the departing coach.

True, we didn't keep a lot of those players around. But that's because morgan and Mac play completely different styles of ball. Morgan was a fast pace, zone defense, street type ball. Mac has a more structured offense, tough man-man defense, and slow paced game. Most of the players we had with morgan were street ballers, and wouldn't fit well into Mac's system.

I wouldn't necessarily call going the University of Iowa a "bigger" stage than Iowa. I don't agree the biggest fish in the state is on the biggest stage, just because they have more students attend their school. ISU's facilities are better than Iowa's, minus football stadiums. ISU plays in a better conference (IMO lol, i hate the Big 10). The only thing they truly have over ISU is a larger football fan base and better football stadium. I think if you are at any type of BCS school can be considered anybody's "dream job." The very elite BCS schools, (texas, oklahoma, florida, usc) are dream, dream, dream jobs that most people would never get. If he bolted for one of those schools, then yeah, he bolted for the bigger stage. But going from ISU to Iowa isn't a jump at all. It's a lateral move on a lot of levels. (really depends on what sport he's/shes going for).

The JP and Chizik comment:
Yes, everybody in ISU nation wanted Chizik. He was considered the top assistant in the nation at that time. He coached great teams at Auburn and Texas. Familiar with the Big 12. Great recruiter. Basically everything we wanted, besides HC experience and local roots. At the time, it was one of those "splash" type hires that is awesome. We learned out lesson. Get somebody with local roots on top of the other things.

JP also stated, that he always has a short list of possible HC candidates at all times. Even before Chizik left, JP had a list stuffed away in some drawer for a time like this.

[zooropa]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

The only thing they truly have over ISU is a larger football fan base and better football stadium.

The JP and Chizik comment:
Yes, everybody in ISU nation wanted Chizik. He was considered the top assistant in the nation at that time. He coached great teams at Auburn and Texas. Familiar with the Big 12. Great recruiter. Basically everything we wanted, besides HC experience and local roots. At the time, it was one of those "splash" type hires that is awesome. We learned out lesson. Get somebody with local roots on top of the other things

I'd guess Iowa has more money to throw at any given coach in any given sport.

Regarding Chizik, if the guy was born on a covered bridge in Madison County, I don't think he'd be a better coach.

He is not, IMO, a good coach. As squishy as the Big XII North is, Chizik should've made an immediate impact if he was any good with Xs and Os.

Also, I don't think that Chizik's birthplace had anything to do with his "Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" attitude. Again, he could've been born on the doorstep of Grant Wood's "American Gothic" farmhouse, and he'd still ditch you guys for a job at Auburn (or any other top tier BCS school).

With Chizik, I think the lesson should've been that 'hype' seldom pans out. The guy was obviously not in it for the long haul, and I think he was such an over-hyped coach that you guys are better off with him leaving.

A more considered hiring process might've cut through the hype.

I mean what if you guys got Turner Gill instead? Granted the timing was off, but the guy had what I would consider to be better credentials for a HEAD COACH than Chizik.

[JimmyJack]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

It's the 'other oddball circumstances' that I fault Nagy for. The caliber of player he recruited was (on average) suspect during the first years of the transition.

I don't fault Nagy for those things. Mo Berte was a good kid who got caught up in something awful (recall that his charges were dropped after Gilbert was found not guilty). Steve Holdren wanted to go home and play for the school he grew up with. The other 6'11" kid flunked out. Matt Cadwell went home. I think a couple other kids quit because they weren't getting to play.

I'm not sure how you can blame Nagy for those things. He stood by his players in the court case and was proven correct. Sometimes kids don't feel comfortable and want to go home or they're mad because they don't play and they quit. Sometimes students don't pass their courses. I don't blame Nagy for all that stuff.

You're going to say "well he brought those guys to campus". Sure, but what I understand, since I have 195 freshmen in my class every semester, is that there is no sure way to predict what an 18-year-old is going to do.

[JimmyJack]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

I wouldn't necessarily call going the University of Iowa a "bigger" stage than Iowa. I don't agree the biggest fish in the state is on the biggest stage, just because they have more students attend their school. ISU's facilities are better than Iowa's, minus football stadiums. ISU plays in a better conference (IMO lol, i hate the Big 10). The only thing they truly have over ISU is a larger football fan base and better football stadium.

I disagree with the Big 10 thing (Iowa graduate here). I would argue that Iowa City is, in my opinion, a much more interesting place than Ames (yes, I realize that's a matter of taste... but you don't see Ames getting listed in those "best college town" kinds of listings. Iowa City always makes those. And Iowa has had a lot more success in football over the past six or seven years. Don't hit me with the head-to-head record. Let's talk New Year's Day bowl games. I think Iowa has, counting this year, four of those in the last 7 years. How many does ISU have?

[cydave]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

I'd guess Iowa has more money to throw at any given coach in any given sport.

Regarding Chizik, if the guy was born on a covered bridge in Madison County, I don't think he'd be a better coach.

He is not, IMO, a good coach. As squishy as the Big XII North is, Chizik should've made an immediate impact if he was any good with Xs and Os.

Also, I don't think that Chizik's birthplace had anything to do with his "Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" attitude. Again, he could've been born on the doorstep of Grant Wood's "American Gothic" farmhouse, and he'd still ditch you guys for a job at Auburn (or any other top tier BCS school).

With Chizik, I think the lesson should've been that 'hype' seldom pans out. The guy was obviously not in it for the long haul, and I think he was such an over-hyped coach that you guys are better off with him leaving.

A more considered hiring process might've cut through the hype.

I mean what if you guys got Turner Gill instead? Granted the timing was off, but the guy had what I would consider to be better credentials for a HEAD COACH than Chizik.

Yes, Iowa has more money than ISU. Put that doesn't mean they are putting it to good use. They pay Kirk, what 3 million/year or something? And yet, he manages a losing record at times? 6-6 record? Overall decline? A team full of inmates? Also, football is truly the only thing that is a step above ISU. And Wrestling, but seriously, nobody outside of the midwest cares about that.

And I'll agree, I don't think Chizik was a good coach. At the time I thought he was great. But, some of the underachieving had to do with the Coordinators. He wasn't doing the play calling or formations, that was all coordinators. I think before he left, he said he was going to get more involved with the defense. Not to mention he demoted both his coordinators.

And some people are midwest people. If you have a good coach at a BCS school that they love and are getting paid well, and are only minutes from family members, I bet most coaches would keep that job, than move thousands of miles away, under more pressure, higher expectations, and living somewhere that they aren't accustomed.

And Gill was everybody's first choice to replace chizik. But that didn't work out. We moved on from him.

[cydave]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

I disagree with the Big 10 thing (Iowa graduate here). I would argue that Iowa City is, in my opinion, a much more interesting place than Ames (yes, I realize that's a matter of taste... but you don't see Ames getting listed in those "best college town" kinds of listings. Iowa City always makes those. And Iowa has had a lot more success in football over the past six or seven years. Don't hit me with the head-to-head record. Let's talk New Year's Day bowl games. I think Iowa has, counting this year, four of those in the last 7 years. How many does ISU have?

Agree to disagree on the Big 10 thing. I'm just more of a fan of the Big 12, but that's a biased opinion.
As for Ames, I would definitely say Iowa City has a better party atmosphere (at least the bars are better). But, I would rather raise a family in Ames, than Iowa City. I doubt the coach is really looking for the best "party" town. Also, Ames, does rank fairly high in the Nations best places to live, and best places to find a job. So, it's not like its non-existant.
LOL of Course Iowa has more success in football than ISU. But, as far as facilities go, their stadium is better, thats it. And why would I hit you with the head to head record? Thay have us beat there as well. haha. But you have to look at more than just wins. How's the program overall? What's the deal with all of the run ins with the law? Is Kirk trying to cover up a rape case? Why are the players living in low income housing? There are a lot of things about the Iowa football program i don't like. Some of those things make it out in public and keep people from coming.

[FargoBison]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

I disagree almost entirely with this assertion.

I agree that physically there is a smaller gap in women's basketball.

I also agree that 15 scholarships vs. 12 makes a difference in recruiting.

However, I disagree with the competition for talent aspect. Why?

Because you have schools that take WBB seriously and that aggregate talent becoming perennial powerhouses (Tennessee, Connecticut). These teams are as hard to knock off as any MBB powerhouse. Harder, in fact, because they take WBB seriously where so many other schools with big budgets treat WBB as an afterthought.

The lack of money, IMO, has created a smaller group of 'super majors'. It hasn't made it -=easier=- to succeed. Both M & W polls are routinely populated with BCS schools, perhaps even more so in WBB.

In WBB it is easier to succeed, especially at the mid-major level. Saul and Nagy have to battle for recruits, against more fierce competition, and probably less overall talent. Going up against MVC and Horizon League teams is very different in terms of MBB and WBB.

Sure there is a well entrenched elite in WBB, but there is a very soft underbelly as well. Just look at NDSU's WBB team last year, it was very average for the program's history and had a lot of success. That team would have been lucky to finish 4th in the old NCC.

[LakeJack]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

Wow, can you say thread drift (not aimed at any one poster).

Great win for the Jacks, so glad it was on TV. Congrats to the team!

[Nidaros]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

Wow, can you say thread drift (not aimed at any one poster).

Great win for the Jacks, so glad it was on TV. Congrats to the team!

Thread drift, yep and I am part of the problem. I am done. I hoping for many more wins.

[joeboo22]

Re: Iowa State Cyclones - Game Thread

I don't even know where to start....

OK, there is a huge difference between mens and womens basketball... And at the college level its even bigger. 1st you add 2 scholarships, less major conferences, and even less mid-major conferences.... The point I get is that you look at the Summit League to the MVC, and Horizon there is no difference with womens, in Mens its huge.... Also money factor, the only D-I recruits SDSU has lost is Osterello and maybe Yackley(where we recruiting here).... Sam was offered a scholarship as a sophomore when attending a Purdue camp.... The guys have lost, who? Colton Iverson to Minnesota (Tubby Smith came to his house, and he went to dinner with Billy Donaven) who else? I think the only one where we lost was Sam Williard... We had pulled the scholarship from Tveidt to offer it to Cordova.... NDSU has done better with transition but I think in 2 years it will be about the same.... This is the first year where we haven't lost a major contribution to transfer, but next year is better.... hoping and praying that we keep everybody and that Davis can come back.... This is who joins a team that only looses 1 player... 6-7 James Rader, 6-8 Dwight Peterson, 6-7 Chad White, 6-8 Tony Feigen, 6-5 Brayden Carlson (probable readshirt though)... and most likely another recruit.... thats 4-5 players joining a fairly deep team already....