Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

[CappinHard]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Yes, a grad transfer with some real experience.

Gtfoh. A tall grad transfer with real experience isn't coming to SDSU. Just because we're going to potentially have the best team SDSU has ever seen doesn't mean we're all of the sudden a perfect destination for a big guy looking to transfer. Give me the name of the last big guy to transfer to a mid major (Cody Larsen doesn't count. That was a perfect storm). The only way mid majors end up with good big guys is to get lucky on recruiting one that turns out being missed by high major teams. Be realistic and quit being so negative. You say we have a history of getting to the tournament... We sure do... We also have a history of never winning a game in the tournament. Sound like a real sweet destination now? Until we make a couple deep runs and prove some staying power, we're just another no name mid major. I would love it if we turn into Wichita State, Creighton, or Gonzaga. Maybe this year is the start of something like that. Fingers crossed. I'm going to enjoy the ride instead of complaining about unrealistic expectations.

[bigticket1]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Yes, a grad transfer with some real experience.

You have any specific names in mind that actually went to a mid-major ?

[bigticket1]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I agree with you here. But then I wonder why the Loudon Love didn't end up at SDSU and also why we decided to pull the offer of the big kid from Sioux Valley (Volga, SD). To me that shows the tendency of where TJ's recruiting is going to go. I'm just thinking out loud here, not sure what to make of it. But does seem somewhat related to the ever-reoccurring "BIG" discussion.

I think you are on the right track. It seems that TJ's philosophy is to play one big and surround him with shooters who can spread the floor. And as long as Mike Daum is here, he is going to be the five, and play big minutes.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

You have any specific names in mind that actually went to a mid-major ?

How about Jay Harvey 6'9 power forward grad transfer from FIU to USD? Long list of big's who transferred to Mid-Majors.

[JACKGUYII]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Gtfoh. A tall grad transfer with real experience isn't coming to SDSU. Just because we're going to potentially have the best team SDSU has ever seen doesn't mean we're all of the sudden a perfect destination for a big guy looking to transfer. Give me the name of the last big guy to transfer to a mid major (Cody Larsen doesn't count. That was a perfect storm). The only way mid majors end up with good big guys is to get lucky on recruiting one that turns out being missed by high major teams. Be realistic and quit being so negative. You say we have a history of getting to the tournament... We sure do... We also have a history of never winning a game in the tournament. Sound like a real sweet destination now? Until we make a couple deep runs and prove some staying power, we're just another no name mid major. I would love it if we turn into Wichita State, Creighton, or Gonzaga. Maybe this year is the start of something like that. Fingers crossed. I'm going to enjoy the ride instead of complaining about unrealistic expectations.

You have the same narrative over and over. "No legitimate big man would ever transfer to SDSU". Who is being negative? You need to be realistic there is a lot more talent out there than you are giving credit. You don't have to have the resume of the teams you cited to get them and SDSU has a good enough reputation. Lot of players who would give anything to just play in the tournament which SDSU has show they have the propensity to do.

[OldHare]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Do we have some names of some of these "big" talent big men we should have brought in?

If Dillon and Dentlinger perform like Daum did during his redshirt year are we still upset we didn't bring in another big man?

!!!!+++!!!$$$

[GopherHole]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

How about Jay Harvey 6'9 power forward grad transfer from FIU to USD? Long list of big's who transferred to Mid-Majors.

I'm sorry for being negative, but if Jay Harvey is the first name to jumps off your list, I think I will pass. I hope for his sake and USD's sake that Harvey can become a difference maker, I just don't see it based off of his history.

Harvey did start 12 games and played in 30 this last year for an FIU program that finished 14-18 in Conference USA. While he may have started 12 games, he didn't appear to be finishing the games when your key players are on the court. He averaged 16 minutes per game, which, was 8th best on a mediocre team. He made 20 field goals in a 30 game season!!! His other stats were also underwhelming; 36.7% from the free throw line, 1 assist/3 steals/3 blocks - for the SEASON. His biggest attribute was leading the team with 56 offensive rebounds, but his average rebounds per game was 7th on the team.

I'd much rather see what Dillon and Dentlinger can become by the time the season ends. That's when we need a player to become a threat on both ends of the court. I have no illusions that either will become what Daum was in his first year contributing, but I do believe they have more upside than Harvey would have for our team.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I don't see the point of bitching about what we don't have when we don't even know what we have. The coaches spent the last year with Dillon and Dentlinger. TJ has led us to two NCAA tourney's. I'll defer to his judgment at this point in the season.

[CappinHard]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

You have the same narrative over and over. "No legitimate big man would ever transfer to SDSU". Who is being negative? You need to be realistic there is a lot more talent out there than you are giving credit. You don't have to have the resume of the teams you cited to get them and SDSU has a good enough reputation. Lot of players who would give anything to just play in the tournament which SDSU has show they have the propensity to do.

I think the problem is that you have this thought in your mind that teams need a legit big man to compete, which isn't true in today's basketball game. TJ is recruiting kids that fit in the modern way basketball is played. There are only like 20 legit big guys that can hack it in today's game, and those are obviously not going to end up at SDSU. So we could probably get a big guy, but he's not going to fit in our scheme and end up on the bench more often than not.

[SoDakJack]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

The traditional big man in CBB basketball is, for now, over. The past two national champions have had 2 players 6'10 or taller, and they both played for that school with the dirty foot.

I would say that the team TJ has put together as of right now will create bigger match-up problems for USD than their perceived size will create for us. We didn't lose to Ohio State because we lacked size. We lost to Ohio State because the players didn't play a perfect game and OSU didn't seem to miss.

[GopherHole]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

What we are hoping to do to take the next step is to win some games in the NCAA tourney so we can then take steps on becoming a consistent mid-major threat. If you look through the years at mid-majors who first started to win games in the Big Dance, it was teams that had unique players and teams that focused on their strengths instead of trying to imitate what the big time programs could consistently do. Win with elite talent on teams that also featured outstanding length.

The mid-major teams that won featured players like:

- Last year, Loyola-Chicago was the Cinderella. They did it with tenacious defense, got hot shooting, and had one big man that was not at Daum's level. Cameron Krutwig, a 6'9" post averaged 10.5 pts and 6.1 rebounds per game. Their key players were 6'1", 6'4", 6'6", and 6'3". The next two off of the bench were 6'5", 6'4" and 6'4". Our team that lost to Ohio State was bigger than Loyola.

- In 2014, Dayton scored upsets over Ohio State, Syracuse, and Stanford in the Big Dance. They did it with a lineup whose top five scorers and top two rebounders were all 6'7" or shorter. Matt Kavanaugh, a 6'10" center averaged 5.7 pts/3.5 rebounds per game.

- Wichita State's run to the 2013 Final Four did have a 7'0" tall post. However, Ehimen Orukpe averaged 2.6 pts/4.4 rebounds per game. Theisen averaged more points and minutes played than Orukpe did in his final two seasons. The key to WSU's run was based on a deep roster with balanced scoring and rebounding. Their key players with any length were both 6'8" forwards.

- Florida Gulf Coast also had a deep run in the 2013 tourney. Their top six players all averaged 6 points or more per game. Two of them were listed at 6'8"/205 lbs, and 6'9"/220 lbs. The other four key contributors were either 6'3" or 6'4".

- Shaka Smart's 2011 VCU team lost in the Final Four to Butler. Jamie Skeen, a 6'9" post led the team with 15.7 pts/7.3 reb per game. Their next five key players were all guards with the next two listed at 6'6" and 6'4".

- Brad Stevens led Butler to back-to-back National Championship games in 2010 and 2011. Shelvin Mack, a 6'3" guard, was a leader on both teams. He had help from 6'8" Gordon Hayward during the 2010 season. The 2010 team featured two 6'8" forwards and the 2011 team had a 6'11" post that helped.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

How about Jay Harvey 6'9 power forward grad transfer from FIU to USD? Long list of big's who transferred to Mid-Majors.

Harvey played in 30 of 32 games last season as a redshirt junior, but he only averaged 1.8 points and 3.1 rebounds per game. Not very intimidating stats.

[Nidaros]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Harvey played in 30 of 32 games last season as a redshirt junior, but he only averaged 1.8 points and 3.1 rebounds per game. Not very intimidating stats.

Hardly a difference maker, but with some MR. LEE magic who knows.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Interesting thread.

The reality is that we need to get better in every possible way. To take the next step to become a Gonzaga or Butler is really tough to do for one year but to sustain it like they have is extremely difficult and rare. If it wasn't so hard more would get there.

So, what does it take? Sure, I would love to see a bunch of McDonald's All-Americans on the roster but that isn't going to just happen.

This needs to be attacked from another angle.

Things that a team like Gonzaga has that we don't have:
1. They have a rabid fan base that is paying big $$$$$ as boosters for tickets, parking, the best seats, etc..
2. They have a gym that only 6,000 people but guess what they average? Yep, 6,000. And they are raucous. They have a waitlist for season tickets. Plus, if there are single game seats, you have to be a member of their booster club and give more than $250/yr to even have a chance at the nosebleeds. What do we draw for USD? 3,000? That's a D2 effort Jacks fans!
3. They have a coach that has been there since 1990 and the head coach since 2000. Sure, we had that in tenure but Few got his team there and didn't exit. Not knocking Nagy, just pointing out it is really rare to see what is happening in Spokane. BTW, they are paying said coach big $$$ which he absolutely deserves. Nagy probabaly would have stayed more $$$,$$$. I'm not so sure we haven't moved forward in TJ.
4. Teams like this don't travel on commercial planes. At the minimum, they charter planes, but in all likelihood fly private planes to their games. I've travelled with our guys, that would be a huge recruiting tool. To see anyone 6'5" or taller stuffed into an economy seat looks painfull.
5. Gonzaga has a HC, an Associate HC, 2 AC's, an Ops Director, a video coordinator, and Admin. Asst., and a Academic Support Services Director all for MBB.

Those are some of the things it took for them to get to the level where they are now. The one common thread is it takes a LOT of cash. The cost of charters alone would blow our budget up. Next, let's say TJ keeps us on an upward trend. Do we find a way to pay him and his assistants the big $,$$$,$$$ it may take to retain them? Where does it come from? Filling Frost with 5,500 fans would help but it takes way more than that.

Now take this back to where this thread has been. To get to the next level it takes players! Bigger, taller, faster, stronger, and all-around better. To get those players you have to provide them a reason to chose SDSU over all the other choices that they have out there. To get on those players' radars you have to have all of the tools and amenities in place. We are taking small steps towards getting there. We have a practice court being built which will be a great asset. But all top programs have all that and a lot more.

Just look to the south in Lincoln to see what Nebraska has done to try and go from an awful Big 12 team to try and be a perennial contender. They built as nice of an arena as any in the country. Their practice facilities are as good or better than any out there. Heck, thought I saw that they have 32" TV's in the stalls in the bathroom. Bottom line is they area sparing no expense and yet they continue to struggle. There are no guarantees!

So, here we are stuck in a rut of our basketball team being very successful at the D1 level but not quite making it happen in "The Big Dance". The problem is, if we are really being honest with ourselves, that this is the best case scenario. Yes, we can finally get that monkey off our back and win a game in the tournament. Frankly, once we get it off our back it will become much easier to repeat it. But, this is our reality. Unless we can find a way to throw millions more at it, fill our arena full to the point that it creates a serious demand for our tickets, and all of the other things that the top programs have committed to doing, this is what we get.

That isn't a bad thing by any stretch. And I'm not a naysayer that believes it can't be done. It can at SDSU. I'm just a realist in acknowledging what it takes to get there and how far we are away. Programs like Gonzaga are an anomaly and it is very special when that happens.

The great news is that we have a very successful program with affordable tickets and a conference tournament in our back yard. There are hundreds of D1 programs that wish they had it this good.

We're just never quite satisfied and want a little bit more. I do too. We all do. Are we willing to stroke the checks to get there?

In the meantime, we just keep hoping for that 6'9" juco big man that everyone else needs too and the occasional diamond in the rough like Mike Daum and Nate Wolters.

I'm ready for some football!

SUPERBUNNY

[SoDakJack]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Interesting thread.

The reality is that we need to get better in every possible way. To take the next step to become a Gonzaga or Butler is really tough to do for one year but to sustain it like they have is extremely difficult and rare. If it wasn't so hard more would get there.

So, what does it take? Sure, I would love to see a bunch of McDonald's All-Americans on the roster but that isn't going to just happen.

This needs to be attacked from another angle.

Things that a team like Gonzaga has that we don't have:
1. They have a rabid fan base that is paying big $$$$$ as boosters for tickets, parking, the best seats, etc..
2. They have a gym that only 6,000 people but guess what they average? Yep, 6,000. And they are raucous. They have a waitlist for season tickets. Plus, if there are single game seats, you have to be a member of their booster club and give more than $250/yr to even have a chance at the nosebleeds. What do we draw for USD? 3,000? That's a D2 effort Jacks fans!
3. They have a coach that has been there since 1990 and the head coach since 2000. Sure, we had that in tenure but Few got his team there and didn't exit. Not knocking Nagy, just pointing out it is really rare to see what is happening in Spokane. BTW, they are paying said coach big $$$ which he absolutely deserves. Nagy probabaly would have stayed more $$$,$$$. I'm not so sure we haven't moved forward in TJ.
4. Teams like this don't travel on commercial planes. At the minimum, they charter planes, but in all likelihood fly private planes to their games. I've travelled with our guys, that would be a huge recruiting tool. To see anyone 6'5" or taller stuffed into an economy seat looks painfull.
5. Gonzaga has a HC, an Associate HC, 2 AC's, an Ops Director, a video coordinator, and Admin. Asst., and a Academic Support Services Director all for MBB.

Those are some of the things it took for them to get to the level where they are now. The one common thread is it takes a LOT of cash. The cost of charters alone would blow our budget up. Next, let's say TJ keeps us on an upward trend. Do we find a way to pay him and his assistants the big $,$$$,$$$ it may take to retain them? Where does it come from? Filling Frost with 5,500 fans would help but it takes way more than that.

Now take this back to where this thread has been. To get to the next level it takes players! Bigger, taller, faster, stronger, and all-around better. To get those players you have to provide them a reason to chose SDSU over all the other choices that they have out there. To get on those players' radars you have to have all of the tools and amenities in place. We are taking small steps towards getting there. We have a practice court being built which will be a great asset. But all top programs have all that and a lot more.

Just look to the south in Lincoln to see what Nebraska has done to try and go from an awful Big 12 team to try and be a perennial contender. They built as nice of an arena as any in the country. Their practice facilities are as good or better than any out there. Heck, thought I saw that they have 32" TV's in the stalls in the bathroom. Bottom line is they area sparing no expense and yet they continue to struggle. There are no guarantees!

So, here we are stuck in a rut of our basketball team being very successful at the D1 level but not quite making it happen in "The Big Dance". The problem is, if we are really being honest with ourselves, that this is the best case scenario. Yes, we can finally get that monkey off our back and win a game in the tournament. Frankly, once we get it off our back it will become much easier to repeat it. But, this is our reality. Unless we can find a way to throw millions more at it, fill our arena full to the point that it creates a serious demand for our tickets, and all of the other things that the top programs have committed to doing, this is what we get.

That isn't a bad thing by any stretch. And I'm not a naysayer that believes it can't be done. It can at SDSU. I'm just a realist in acknowledging what it takes to get there and how far we are away. Programs like Gonzaga are an anomaly and it is very special when that happens.

The great news is that we have a very successful program with affordable tickets and a conference tournament in our back yard. There are hundreds of D1 programs that wish they had it this good.

We're just never quite satisfied and want a little bit more. I do too. We all do. Are we willing to stroke the checks to get there?

In the meantime, we just keep hoping for that 6'9" juco big man that everyone else needs too and the occasional diamond in the rough like Mike Daum and Nate Wolters.

I'm ready for some football!

SUPERBUNNY

I think that if you look at the Mid-Majors that have sustained success, you will find that they are basically a one trick pony. Butler/Gonzaga/Wichita State are all basketball schools that funnel a good portion of the budget to these programs. At SDSU boosters are asked to spread themselves pretty thin by supporting a successful football team along with 2 successful basketball teams. Imagine what the basketball teams could do with the football money added to the budget. Then imagine what the football team could do with the budgets of the basketball teams.