Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

[Rabbit74]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I'm nervous about fan support this year. With the team we have coming back , we should be able to draw great crowds. The product on the court has never been better.

SUPERBUNNY

According to the seating chart, there are less than 300 seats left in the reserved seat area. That would mean about 1700 reserved season tickets have been sold. There are also general admission season tickets sold but no way to estimate how many.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I'm excited to see what kind of boost (short and long term) the practice gym and renovation of Frost will give this program. Short term we're almost guaranteed an increase in attendance, which hopefully leads to more season ticket holders. Long term I think we're bound to see an effect in recruitment. All of this is similar to what the football program has seen with the SJAC and Dykhouse.

With all the talk about how the better mid major programs only have basketball, I would rather have it this way. The success both programs have had recently is amazing and so fun to watch as an alumni and fan.

I'm nervous about fan support this year. With the team we have coming back , we should be able to draw great crowds. The product on the court has never been better.

SUPERBUNNY

[CappinHard]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I'm excited to see what kind of boost (short and long term) the practice gym and renovation of Frost will give this program. Short term we're almost guaranteed an increase in attendance, which hopefully leads to more season ticket holders. Long term I think we're bound to see an effect in recruitment. All of this is similar to what the football program has seen with the SJAC and Dykhouse.

With all the talk about how the better mid major programs only have basketball, I would rather have it this way. The success both programs have had recently is amazing and so fun to watch as an alumni and fan.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

That novel I wrote took almost a six-pack.

SUPERBUNNY

To read.

Not sure how many it took to write.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I think a better near-term goal for men's basketball is not to be Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State, Butler or even UNI, it's to be a Murray State. Basically, get the men's program to the same place SDSU's women are at--be a legitimate contender to advance to the round of 32, and advancing to the Sweet 16 isn't a totally ridiculous proposition with a special team.

I think that non-conference scheduling will have to get much more aggressive, and that will necessarily mean giving up a couple of home non-conference games.

I would agree with this totally. While I brought up Gonzaga in my ultra-lengthy post, I don't think that is realistic at all. This level of competition is achievable. Need to look into what they draw for crowds, their capacity, and make some comparisons. Will leave that to someone else. That novel I wrote took almost a six-pack.

SUPERBUNNY

[Nidaros]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

This thread took an interesting turn. We went from needing a big man to compete and win in the NCAA tourney to being the next Gonzaga.

There is no doubt, SDSU needs bigger and better athletes. As I type our coaching staff is out there looking for these guys. I don’t see any harm in looking at Gonzaga’s track record. This old goat in 1959-60 saw our Jacks beat them in The Barn. I think we can do it again. Everything has to be better in order for that to happen again.

[filbert]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

I think that is because they are still a "mid-major" in people's eyes. I think that programs like UNI, Butler, and Creighton are a better target at this point in our D1 journey.

I think a better near-term goal for men's basketball is not to be Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State, Butler or even UNI, it's to be a Murray State. Basically, get the men's program to the same place SDSU's women are at--be a legitimate contender to advance to the round of 32, and advancing to the Sweet 16 isn't a totally ridiculous proposition with a special team.

I think that non-conference scheduling will have to get much more aggressive, and that will necessarily mean giving up a couple of home non-conference games.

[SoDakJack]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

This thread took an interesting turn. We went from needing a big man to compete and win in the NCAA tourney to being the next Gonzaga.

I think that is because they are still a "mid-major" in people's eyes. I think that programs like UNI, Butler, and Creighton are a better target at this point in our D1 journey.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

This thread took an interesting turn. We went from needing a big man to compete and win in the NCAA tourney to being the next Gonzaga.

[Nidaros]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

When we look at teams like Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State or Butler, they all have a few competitive advantages. The most important of which is the large Metro areas they are a part of. Omaha has a Metro of close to a million people, Wichita is around 650000, Spokane is around 550,000 and Indianapolis is over 2 million. They are the major university in their cities. Except for Butler they don't compete with an NBA team in their state.

Think about all of those things. Alumni have the opportunity to stay close, stay engaged with their alma mater and have good paying jobs. There are few competitors for their time and resources. It's not shocking that their donor base is much larger and their attendance much higher.

I would love for SDSU to replicate the success of any of these schools but to think we can just copy their model isn't being realistic. If we are to get there, I believe our path will have to look much different. What that path looks like I can't tell you but our population base is much different.

An old, old, clique " Rome was not built in a day". I think SDSU has progressed a great deal since 2003 in building programs at the D1 level. There are miles and miles of difference between D2 and D1. This is what we found out.

To have a Gonzaga basketball program next season is almost impossible if not impossible. Can we expect more next year? I think we can. I dont have an answer on how to make the program better. True, SDSU is not located in a metro area, but darn close to one. I suspect Oklahoma U is in a similar situation being about 40 to 50 miles from Oklahoma City, but they have somehow not let that be a barrier. I think we have done the same with Sioux Falls but not to the same extent. The initial Study, The Carr Report, made often mention of having to rely on the population of Sioux Falls in order to be successful at the D1 Level. I find it interesting that many of the posters here have addresses of Sioux Falls, or Minnehaha County. So SDSU Admin must be doing something right.

Contrast this with the 1960's when I was a student. Our following in SF was then was very little, mostly very loyal alums like the Schock brothers who owned a large dairy called Terrace Park. I think they are long gone as supporters, but now we are doing much better in corporate sponsorship and booster contributions.

Back in the 1960's, there was little attention paid to alums who started successful companies such as Hefty Seed. Had they went after successful corporate sponsors such as Hefty, we would be miles ahead of where we are today. My point is we are doing so much better than 20,30 or 40 years ago. The exposure that these sponsors receive offsets the cost many times.


This is a good dialogue, lets keep it going.

[Justwin]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

The main ingredient needed for an under dog mid major team like ourselves to win a game or two in the NCAA tourney is a little luck. Take a look at most upsets and one team gets hot and the favorite doesn't play very well. I would be willing to bet if the previous tournament had been replayed one week later MANY games would of had different outcomes. Bottom line is it is hard to win games in the tournament. I have faith in this coaching staff bringing in kids that can get the job done but I'm not sure there is a sure fire blue print on how to do it.

[NebraskaJack]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

When we look at teams like Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State or Butler, they all have a few competitive advantages. The most important of which is the large Metro areas they are a part of. Omaha has a Metro of close to a million people, Wichita is around 650000, Spokane is around 550,000 and Indianapolis is over 2 million. They are the major university in their cities. Except for Butler they don't compete with an NBA team in their state.

Think about all of those things. Alumni have the opportunity to stay close, stay engaged with their alma mater and have good paying jobs. There are few competitors for their time and resources. It's not shocking that their donor base is much larger and their attendance much higher.

I would love for SDSU to replicate the success of any of these schools but to think we can just copy their model isn't being realistic. If we are to get there, I believe our path will have to look much different. What that path looks like I can't tell you but our population base is much different.

[SoDakJack]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Interesting thread.

The reality is that we need to get better in every possible way. To take the next step to become a Gonzaga or Butler is really tough to do for one year but to sustain it like they have is extremely difficult and rare. If it wasn't so hard more would get there.

So, what does it take? Sure, I would love to see a bunch of McDonald's All-Americans on the roster but that isn't going to just happen.

This needs to be attacked from another angle.

Things that a team like Gonzaga has that we don't have:
1. They have a rabid fan base that is paying big $$$$$ as boosters for tickets, parking, the best seats, etc..
2. They have a gym that only 6,000 people but guess what they average? Yep, 6,000. And they are raucous. They have a waitlist for season tickets. Plus, if there are single game seats, you have to be a member of their booster club and give more than $250/yr to even have a chance at the nosebleeds. What do we draw for USD? 3,000? That's a D2 effort Jacks fans!
3. They have a coach that has been there since 1990 and the head coach since 2000. Sure, we had that in tenure but Few got his team there and didn't exit. Not knocking Nagy, just pointing out it is really rare to see what is happening in Spokane. BTW, they are paying said coach big $$$ which he absolutely deserves. Nagy probabaly would have stayed more $$$,$$$. I'm not so sure we haven't moved forward in TJ.
4. Teams like this don't travel on commercial planes. At the minimum, they charter planes, but in all likelihood fly private planes to their games. I've travelled with our guys, that would be a huge recruiting tool. To see anyone 6'5" or taller stuffed into an economy seat looks painfull.
5. Gonzaga has a HC, an Associate HC, 2 AC's, an Ops Director, a video coordinator, and Admin. Asst., and a Academic Support Services Director all for MBB.

Those are some of the things it took for them to get to the level where they are now. The one common thread is it takes a LOT of cash. The cost of charters alone would blow our budget up. Next, let's say TJ keeps us on an upward trend. Do we find a way to pay him and his assistants the big $,$$$,$$$ it may take to retain them? Where does it come from? Filling Frost with 5,500 fans would help but it takes way more than that.

Now take this back to where this thread has been. To get to the next level it takes players! Bigger, taller, faster, stronger, and all-around better. To get those players you have to provide them a reason to chose SDSU over all the other choices that they have out there. To get on those players' radars you have to have all of the tools and amenities in place. We are taking small steps towards getting there. We have a practice court being built which will be a great asset. But all top programs have all that and a lot more.

Just look to the south in Lincoln to see what Nebraska has done to try and go from an awful Big 12 team to try and be a perennial contender. They built as nice of an arena as any in the country. Their practice facilities are as good or better than any out there. Heck, thought I saw that they have 32" TV's in the stalls in the bathroom. Bottom line is they area sparing no expense and yet they continue to struggle. There are no guarantees!

So, here we are stuck in a rut of our basketball team being very successful at the D1 level but not quite making it happen in "The Big Dance". The problem is, if we are really being honest with ourselves, that this is the best case scenario. Yes, we can finally get that monkey off our back and win a game in the tournament. Frankly, once we get it off our back it will become much easier to repeat it. But, this is our reality. Unless we can find a way to throw millions more at it, fill our arena full to the point that it creates a serious demand for our tickets, and all of the other things that the top programs have committed to doing, this is what we get.

That isn't a bad thing by any stretch. And I'm not a naysayer that believes it can't be done. It can at SDSU. I'm just a realist in acknowledging what it takes to get there and how far we are away. Programs like Gonzaga are an anomaly and it is very special when that happens.

The great news is that we have a very successful program with affordable tickets and a conference tournament in our back yard. There are hundreds of D1 programs that wish they had it this good.

We're just never quite satisfied and want a little bit more. I do too. We all do. Are we willing to stroke the checks to get there?

In the meantime, we just keep hoping for that 6'9" juco big man that everyone else needs too and the occasional diamond in the rough like Mike Daum and Nate Wolters.

I'm ready for some football!

SUPERBUNNY

I think that if you look at the Mid-Majors that have sustained success, you will find that they are basically a one trick pony. Butler/Gonzaga/Wichita State are all basketball schools that funnel a good portion of the budget to these programs. At SDSU boosters are asked to spread themselves pretty thin by supporting a successful football team along with 2 successful basketball teams. Imagine what the basketball teams could do with the football money added to the budget. Then imagine what the football team could do with the budgets of the basketball teams.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Interesting thread.

The reality is that we need to get better in every possible way. To take the next step to become a Gonzaga or Butler is really tough to do for one year but to sustain it like they have is extremely difficult and rare. If it wasn't so hard more would get there.

So, what does it take? Sure, I would love to see a bunch of McDonald's All-Americans on the roster but that isn't going to just happen.

This needs to be attacked from another angle.

Things that a team like Gonzaga has that we don't have:
1. They have a rabid fan base that is paying big $$$$$ as boosters for tickets, parking, the best seats, etc..
2. They have a gym that only 6,000 people but guess what they average? Yep, 6,000. And they are raucous. They have a waitlist for season tickets. Plus, if there are single game seats, you have to be a member of their booster club and give more than $250/yr to even have a chance at the nosebleeds. What do we draw for USD? 3,000? That's a D2 effort Jacks fans!
3. They have a coach that has been there since 1990 and the head coach since 2000. Sure, we had that in tenure but Few got his team there and didn't exit. Not knocking Nagy, just pointing out it is really rare to see what is happening in Spokane. BTW, they are paying said coach big $$$ which he absolutely deserves. Nagy probabaly would have stayed more $$$,$$$. I'm not so sure we haven't moved forward in TJ.
4. Teams like this don't travel on commercial planes. At the minimum, they charter planes, but in all likelihood fly private planes to their games. I've travelled with our guys, that would be a huge recruiting tool. To see anyone 6'5" or taller stuffed into an economy seat looks painfull.
5. Gonzaga has a HC, an Associate HC, 2 AC's, an Ops Director, a video coordinator, and Admin. Asst., and a Academic Support Services Director all for MBB.

Those are some of the things it took for them to get to the level where they are now. The one common thread is it takes a LOT of cash. The cost of charters alone would blow our budget up. Next, let's say TJ keeps us on an upward trend. Do we find a way to pay him and his assistants the big $,$$$,$$$ it may take to retain them? Where does it come from? Filling Frost with 5,500 fans would help but it takes way more than that.

Now take this back to where this thread has been. To get to the next level it takes players! Bigger, taller, faster, stronger, and all-around better. To get those players you have to provide them a reason to chose SDSU over all the other choices that they have out there. To get on those players' radars you have to have all of the tools and amenities in place. We are taking small steps towards getting there. We have a practice court being built which will be a great asset. But all top programs have all that and a lot more.

Just look to the south in Lincoln to see what Nebraska has done to try and go from an awful Big 12 team to try and be a perennial contender. They built as nice of an arena as any in the country. Their practice facilities are as good or better than any out there. Heck, thought I saw that they have 32" TV's in the stalls in the bathroom. Bottom line is they area sparing no expense and yet they continue to struggle. There are no guarantees!

So, here we are stuck in a rut of our basketball team being very successful at the D1 level but not quite making it happen in "The Big Dance". The problem is, if we are really being honest with ourselves, that this is the best case scenario. Yes, we can finally get that monkey off our back and win a game in the tournament. Frankly, once we get it off our back it will become much easier to repeat it. But, this is our reality. Unless we can find a way to throw millions more at it, fill our arena full to the point that it creates a serious demand for our tickets, and all of the other things that the top programs have committed to doing, this is what we get.

That isn't a bad thing by any stretch. And I'm not a naysayer that believes it can't be done. It can at SDSU. I'm just a realist in acknowledging what it takes to get there and how far we are away. Programs like Gonzaga are an anomaly and it is very special when that happens.

The great news is that we have a very successful program with affordable tickets and a conference tournament in our back yard. There are hundreds of D1 programs that wish they had it this good.

We're just never quite satisfied and want a little bit more. I do too. We all do. Are we willing to stroke the checks to get there?

In the meantime, we just keep hoping for that 6'9" juco big man that everyone else needs too and the occasional diamond in the rough like Mike Daum and Nate Wolters.

I'm ready for some football!

SUPERBUNNY

[Nidaros]

Re: Breaking Through: What's Needed to win an NCAA game or two?

Harvey played in 30 of 32 games last season as a redshirt junior, but he only averaged 1.8 points and 3.1 rebounds per game. Not very intimidating stats.

Hardly a difference maker, but with some MR. LEE magic who knows.