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GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

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  • #61
    Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

    Originally posted by MontanaRabbit View Post
    I don't really understand why we TJ refuses to play man even if it's just a change of pace look. This team can't be any less "athletic" than our teams with Wolters and they did ok with man d.
    I don't believe us not playing man-to-man defense has anything to do with athleticism, as you are right, we are not less athletic than either of our 1st two tournament teams. The reason in my mind we weren't good at man-to-man earlier in the season lies in a lack of toughness, communication, and awareness.

    When we started the season playing man-to-man, it was a super soft version with tons of switching and hardly any fighting through screens and hedging ball screens. Our communication wasn't there either and our new guys just weren't grasping the basic principles of the defense.

    What makes man-to-man a good base defense is that you can cater it toward each opposing player's strengths and weaknesses, but that also causes a demand for mental wherewithal and constant communication between teammates. There's also a mental toughness factor because a player is usually charged with stopping a certain player from scoring and their failure to do so can't just be chalked up to the opposing offense player not being in your zone. There has to be an attitude of "Not here, not while I'm guarding you."

    I believe the team started playing better after going to the zone not because the zone was overly effective, but rather it allowed our players to think less and react more.

    I have to be honest: The first few games this year looked on par with the transition years where we were starting 2 DII walkons at the guard spots. We didn't look like our players never played basketball together before, we looked like we had never played basketball before period. Obviously the individual talent is light years ahead of the transition teams, but we needed to just go out and play and not overthink, and I believe that's where the zone came in and got our season on track.

    I'm on record as not being a fan of zone being our base defense, but it has it's positives. It's not like we maxed out how good we can play zone either, as there is so many little things we can do to clean it up, but we are still going to run into trouble when the opposition is shooting and rebounding the ball well.

    I think we may be to the point in "the process" in which we could start mixing man-to-man back into the defense when a team is shooting well, but regardless of what defensive set we choose, we're going to have to play it better than how we played tonight if we want to see any kind of postseason games.
    If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments.
    - Steven Wright

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    • #62
      Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

      'member when we used to make fun of USD for running a zone?

      The 3 point shot has DRAMATICALLY changed the game of basketball - at all levels - in the last 10 years. 34% shooting from 3 beats 50% from 2, its math and coaches have finally figured it out. Rick Pitino was the first coach to teach this when he almost took a bunch of misfits (plus Jamal Mashburn) to the Final Four.

      If you can't defend the 3, you can't win consistently. That's the bottom line in today's game of basketball.

      I don't care what kind of defense we run, as long as we win.
      “I used to be with it. But then they changed what it was. Now what I’m with isn’t it, and what’s it seems scary and wierd. It’ll happen to you.” — Abe Simpson

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      • #63
        Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

        Stats from our first six games (the man era):

        Avg Pts Allowed: 77.2
        2PT FG Made: 27.5
        2PT %: 45.3
        3 PT FG Made: 10.5
        3PT %: 37.7


        Stats from our last eight games:

        Avg Pts Allowed: 74.8
        2PT FG Made: 26.3
        2PT %: 44.4
        3 PT FG Made: 13.5
        3PT %: 39


        Allowing on average 3 more 3 point FG/game when we are in zone. Minimal difference in pts allowed per game (2.4 pts/game).

        I'll argue our success in the last eight games hasn't been because of the zone defense. We've been MUCH better on offense. If we have any hope of competing for a Summit League title, we can't give up 13.5 3 pointers per game.

        Our offense was pretty good last night. We've got some things to clean up, but it's coming along nicely. Our defense was and still is awful.

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        • #64
          Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

          In talking with one of our assistants before the season started he said "we will be able to score with anyone but right now we can't guard 5 of you." 'You' meaning me and I'm old and slow.

          So - they knew we were going to struggle defensively and I trust they are smart enough to figure out what our best options are with the personnel we currently have. Our coaches aren't dumb and they don't like seeing teams pour in 3s and setting school records (I believe two teams have done that now against us) any more than we do.

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          • #65
            Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

            Originally posted by BTownJack View Post
            In talking with one of our assistants before the season started he said "we will be able to score with anyone but right now we can't guard 5 of you." 'You' meaning me and I'm old and slow.

            So - they knew we were going to struggle defensively and I trust they are smart enough to figure out what our best options are with the personnel we currently have. Our coaches aren't dumb and they don't like seeing teams pour in 3s and setting school records (I believe two teams have done that now against us) any more than we do.
            Somebody said on twitter it is 4 teams that have school record 3 point mades. UNI, Murray St, Drake and Witchita.

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            • #66
              Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

              Originally posted by bigticket1 View Post
              Jacks were 1-5 playing man and the win was against Wayne State. They are 6-3 playing zone. Two of those losses were at Northern Iowa and tonight. We wouldn't have won either playing man.
              I'm not a basketball mind in the slightest, I'll be honest about it, but boy the amount of unhappiness about the zone is pretty incredible if you look at those two numbers there. Oh, also the part in the post above that doesn't equate to me as well. The part about not winning giving up 13.5 threes a game or something. Does it matter really and truly since we're allowing less ppg? I mean doesn't the number of points matter more than whether it was a bunch of 2's or 3's? I guess that's what has me so flummoxed about the whole hating on the zone thing, it really comes across as the exact same thing as bison fans bitching about not running the ball enough when their winning. In the end doesn't defense boils down to two things? 1) do we give up less points per game with one over the other? 2) do we win when we play zone instead of man? Seems to me both of those are answered yes. We just lost by a bunch to a good team, yes. We also lost by less than anybody else this season so far on their home court, so there is that. I don't enjoy losing, but I'm also willing to be patient for a year minimum with a new coach before I start being angry after every game. Maybe it's because I'm a much more avid football fan than a basketball fan.



              Also, you could tell people we're going to be complaining about defense the day TJ was hired by the comments that I read, and this zone just makes it easier for some since it's "not SDSU basketball".


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              Remember Gun Saftey-Treat Every Hunter as if he were Loaded

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              • #67
                Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                Thumper_76: you're doing it wrong. The coaches may have been seeing these guys in workouts and practices since spring but we message board jockeys know better about what they are best suited to do. Get with the frickin' program. The zone is the devil!


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                • #68
                  GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                  Edit: double post. Though it should be said twice: The zone is causing global warming and founded ISIS!

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                  • #69
                    Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                    Originally posted by thumper_76 View Post
                    I'm not a basketball mind in the slightest, I'll be honest about it, but boy the amount of unhappiness about the zone is pretty incredible if you look at those two numbers there. Oh, also the part in the post above that doesn't equate to me as well. The part about not winning giving up 13.5 threes a game or something. Does it matter really and truly since we're allowing less ppg? I mean doesn't the number of points matter more than whether it was a bunch of 2's or 3's? I guess that's what has me so flummoxed about the whole hating on the zone thing, it really comes across as the exact same thing as bison fans bitching about not running the ball enough when their winning. In the end doesn't defense boils down to two things? 1) do we give up less points per game with one over the other? 2) do we win when we play zone instead of man? Seems to me both of those are answered yes. We just lost by a bunch to a good team, yes. We also lost by less than anybody else this season so far on their home court, so there is that. I don't enjoy losing, but I'm also willing to be patient for a year minimum with a new coach before I start being angry after every game. Maybe it's because I'm a much more avid football fan than a basketball fan.



                    Also, you could tell people we're going to be complaining about defense the day TJ was hired by the comments that I read, and this zone just makes it easier for some since it's "not SDSU basketball".


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    I don't give two ****s what defense we play. Really couldn't care less. I'm not a fan of it because teams are getting WIDE open looks from the 3 point line. But, I'm far from an expert. Maybe it's the best defense for this team.

                    But right now, we are a terrible team on the defensive end. My numbers above prove that. We are giving up just over 2 fewer points per game using this zone. That's not much.

                    I'll say it again, we aren't winning because we switched to the zone. We are winning because we have improved A LOT on the offensive end. If you watched last night you could tell we are pretty good on that end of the floor.

                    If we can't improve significantly on the defensive end we won't be winning the Summit. In order to win consistently we need to be allowing mid 60's ppg.

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                    • #70
                      Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                      Originally posted by Southeast View Post
                      Thumper_76: you're doing it wrong. The coaches may have been seeing these guys in workouts and practices since spring but we message board jockeys know better about what they are best suited to do. Get with the frickin' program. The zone is the devil!


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      Do you feel good about our defense?

                      I'm not terribly disappointed about the result last night, but really don't think our defense is anywhere close to where it needs to be to contend in the Summit.

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                      • #71
                        Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                        Originally posted by OldHare View Post
                        I am not a zone hater. I am a terrible defense hater. After watching this game and the number of open 3 point shots for the Shockers, I would like to have a therapy dog available. The coaching staff will play the defense they want. That is their decision and they will be the people that sink or swim with the results. I am hoping for better performance from this defense direction. The Jackrabbits were outrebounded by 9 and 5 of those extras were offensive. Second chance points tonight was 18-2 in favor the Shockers! The Jackrabbits helped the Shockers set a new record for made 3 point shots tonight. That might be the trademark of this defense this year. Now you can tell me to wait through the process and I am waiting. I just need some counseling and maybe a coloring book to get me through this time thing. I am confident that there is enough talent at SDSU to put together a good Summit season. A side note for the Nagy haters...Wright State(9-4) wins at Murray State 77-62 tonight.
                        I'm confused by some of your, and others posts. Since it seems to be all about Nagy I wonder; did we fire Nagy or did Nagy choose to leave for a new position?

                        We have a new coach and replaced our top 4 guards. We have a superstar in the middle who, if we go man to man and he gets pounded on will be limited to 25 minutes or less per night. I think TJ needs to get more creative in his defenses, and I hope he does as the season goes on. There are ways to play a zone, protect Daum but still be able to hound shooters. I think we get there but we aren't yet. T

                        his team is far ahead of where they were 3 weeks ago. As a fan I'm happy with where we are and I'm expecting a solid conference season with some ups, and some downs. What is getting old is the Nagy talk. He isn't coming back, he wasn't fired, it was his choice to leave, and I could care less about Wright State. Can we move on? Pretty sure I'm not alone in this way of thinking.

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                        • #72
                          Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                          Originally posted by jacksfan29 View Post
                          I'm confused by some of your, and others posts. Since it seems to be all about Nagy I wonder; did we fire Nagy or did Nagy choose to leave for a new position?

                          We have a new coach and replaced our top 4 guards. We have a superstar in the middle who, if we go man to man and he gets pounded on will be limited to 25 minutes or less per night. I think TJ needs to get more creative in his defenses, and I hope he does as the season goes on. There are ways to play a zone, protect Daum but still be able to hound shooters. I think we get there but we aren't yet. T

                          his team is far ahead of where they were 3 weeks ago. As a fan I'm happy with where we are and I'm expecting a solid conference season with some ups, and some downs. What is getting old is the Nagy talk. He isn't coming back, he wasn't fired, it was his choice to leave, and I could care less about Wright State. Can we move on? Pretty sure I'm not alone in this way of thinking.
                          I totally agree with this. I gets old comparing what Nagy is doing to what TJ is doing. I think everyone gets that we lost a lot of people from last year and are essentially starting over, but I think what some people are forgetting is that Nagy has been a head coach for 20 years. He knows what he wants to do, he has went through tough times in his career to figure out what works and what doesn't. TJ has never done this before. He has never had to run an entire program. It is going to take time for him to figure it out and I guarantee you that he is doing things now or has done things to this point that in a couple years he will figure out wasn't the best way to do it. It's not just a process for this team to get where we as fans want it. It is a process for TJ to figure how he wants to run this program in its entirety and that is going to take time.

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                          • #73
                            Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                            Originally posted by jacksfan29 View Post
                            I'm confused by some of your, and others posts. Since it seems to be all about Nagy I wonder; did we fire Nagy or did Nagy choose to leave for a new position?

                            We have a new coach and replaced our top 4 guards. We have a superstar in the middle who, if we go man to man and he gets pounded on will be limited to 25 minutes or less per night. I think TJ needs to get more creative in his defenses, and I hope he does as the season goes on. There are ways to play a zone, protect Daum but still be able to hound shooters. I think we get there but we aren't yet. T

                            his team is far ahead of where they were 3 weeks ago. As a fan I'm happy with where we are and I'm expecting a solid conference season with some ups, and some downs. What is getting old is the Nagy talk. He isn't coming back, he wasn't fired, it was his choice to leave, and I could care less about Wright State. Can we move on? Pretty sure I'm not alone in this way of thinking.
                            What that guy said!

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                            • #74
                              Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                              Originally posted by Carolina010 View Post
                              I totally agree with this. I gets old comparing what Nagy is doing to what TJ is doing. I think everyone gets that we lost a lot of people from last year and are essentially starting over, but I think what some people are forgetting is that Nagy has been a head coach for 20 years. He knows what he wants to do, he has went through tough times in his career to figure out what works and what doesn't. TJ has never done this before. He has never had to run an entire program. It is going to take time for him to figure it out and I guarantee you that he is doing things now or has done things to this point that in a couple years he will figure out wasn't the best way to do it. It's not just a process for this team to get where we as fans want it. It is a process for TJ to figure how he wants to run this program in its entirety and that is going to take time.
                              Your absolutely right. I'm not unhappy with where we are as a team. If we can improve on defense we are gonna be damn tough.

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                              • #75
                                Re: GDT: SDSU Jackrabbits @ Wichita State Shockers

                                I also am happy with our offensive improvements from the beginning of the year. Vast improvements.
                                I like man-to-man as it keeps players accountable. But I don't mind zone if it is done properly. But what I don't like with what I have been seeing with the zone is the flat feet, not being active, hands down and the watching. Those things are easily fixable.

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