2022 and 2023 Champs and the All Time Jacks

[LetsGoRabbits]

well since we just played USD in hoops today and the discussion regarding both games created MAYBE 5 pages of discussion

and there seems to be little more discussion about football, other than what players and coaches we are going to lose to other schools before we play OSU next fall.....

I thought this might create something to talk about for a minute (probably wrong, but hey there are only 5 games left in the NFL season and nobody can pay me enough or find any other reason to make me watch an NBA game) because if we are not gonna talk about Jacks Hoops, i need something to talk about until baseball begins in March

SO...

the first question I thought of was, which all time Rabbit Great football players would have definitely started for this years team?

that quickly morphed to not include players from last year, because unless you think some of this years guys improved to the point of passing them, then we know that Kraft, Sanders, and Winkleman would start for this years team

so that kinda makes the question, Which all time greats definitely take a starting job away from someone on one of the two championship teams?

I think at some point then you are trying to decide are you specifically trying to decide, for example, if Rozeboom replaces Adam Bock at middle backer? or are you trying just to find the 3 best LBs we have ever had, etc.... at the other positions

so each of you can decide how position specific you want to be

personally, i grew up much more of a basketball fan and have been to way way more Jacks basketball games in my lifetime than football games. I, therefore, very much admit that there are probably plenty of all time greats that i lack proper knowledge about. I also wanted to refrain from simply looking in the record books

so here are at least my beginning thoughts, from my somewhat limited perspective and i am taking on the positions in no particular order

since I used LB as my example, i will begin there-

From my perspective, I believe there is a very good argument that Bock, Freeman, and Stahlbird are the best group of LBs we have ever put on the field at the same time (really a bummer that Freeman and Bock did not get to play much time together when Bock was fully healthy), but I am not ready to say they are the 3 best LBs we have ever had

The Bock vs Rozeboom question? maybe more of a LB expert can give a good reason i am wrong but I think it is close to a coin flip. I give Rozeboom the edge for two reasons- he stayed healthy for 4 years and he currently starts for an NFL team. If Bock goes on to start in the NFL then i think it is even closer

the other thing i think might be possible (also very interested for some smart fan to tell me if this is wrong and why) is that we have seen the 5 best LBs in Jacks history in the last 6 years. those being Rozeboom, Bock, Backhaus, Freeman, and Stahlbird

if they are not the top 5 they are dang close. to me the most obvious other name is Lally. after that, Doug Miller (Doug is a case like some others where my memory is a little fuzzy and i am not positive if he played just LB or some combination, or was he totally a DE. there could be others like this, but until someone tells me i am wrong, I will put Doug with the LBs) I also dont remember Derek Domino position for sure? LB or Safety but he was very good and did have a shot in the NFL

other all time great LBS- Rogers, Bobbit, Osmundson, maybe Derek Brown, other names i am forgetting or dont know are not really in this discussion in my limited perspective. maybe someone will prove that wrong??

Offensive Line
I will not go through every position the way i did LB. that just gives an idea of what i was thinking in considering the question. i used the same thinking for every spot, but i will try to make the comments more brief

I am sure plenty of people have more expertise about this position and can explain better who the all time best 5 are

i would guess it is very likely that Greenfield and McCormick are in that group

center gotta be Langer right? but Miller vs Ohnasorgie (I know that is not how you spell it but i dont think anyone really knows, maybe including Ohnasorgie and his parents haha) is a pretty good question right?

Beernsten and O Brian are obviously very good both have started at least 25 games straight (how many O line from the past can say that?), but i am guessing there are probably several other guys who take the spots for the all time list

Timmerman I would guess is definitely on the list
I have several other names in my mind, but I will not embarass myself more on the topic of O Line

D Line

again, maybe someone explains how wrong i am and why, but I have a feeling that NOBODY on this years team is in our All time D Line group. I think the strength of this years D Line was having a lot of very good players, but not necessarily one great one

I feel like i am totally guessing at this position. is Batten the best ever? Sanders? I feel like Soulek would have probably started this year, maybe Langer too?? i know there are plenty of greats i am forgetting or not aware of

Cornerback

Gales, Beanum, Arrell and the rest are a pretty great group. what past guys are definitely better??

guesses Jordan Brown and Don Gardner?? is it possible those two and the current group are the best CBs in team history?

going way back, I believe Wayne Rasmussen was a DB but maybe a safety. he probably should be in this discussion for both a great college career and an NFL career. personally I love JeRyan Butler and also thought Mears was a stud, but I think they were probably a bit less talented than recent guys??


Safety

I really dont know. I think we have had a lot of good ones. Large seems on a path to being as good as any, but probably Griffin takes a starting spot on this years team and i am guessing there are others who deserve to be in the conversation. was Domino a safety? Doug Miller? Rasmussen

Wide Receiver

well it is VERY TOUGH to say someone is taking a spot from one of the Jankes!! i believe Jaxon is #2 all time in both recpetions and yards, but Jadon pretty clearly had the better year in 2023. I think it is still way more than clear that Weineke is the best WR in team history, but which Janke is he replacing in 2023? also some believe that both Jankes will play on sundays. if that happens, they will accomplish something Jake has not, but as far as their Jacks careers go Jake is still clearly THE MAN

we have had plenty of other very very good WRs including Cade Johnson, but in my personal perspective, I will just say we play a lot of 3 WR sets and my three WR are Jake and the two Jankes. also for me, i will be interested to see why someone disagrees, but I think Jeff Tiefentahler deserves to be among the others discussed to take a spot. I think he was faster than Jake or the Jankes and definitely had excellent skills. would be interesting to stick him in a current offense

Tight End

does anyone have someone besides Goedert or Tucker? Heins has been a GREAT GREAT Jackrabbit!! I love everything about him, but it has to be Dallas or Tucker right? is there someone else i am forgetting. for me personally i know Dallas has the stats, but my personal choice is Kraft. I think it is very close between the two. i know if you use stats and nothing else, it is Dallas.

Quarterback

has to be a discussion of Taryn vs Gronowski right?

does anyone put another name in the discussion? another top career? or maybe someone who had one great year? (Brad Nelson 2003 comes to mind) if you put Brad or Austin with this years team are they a better QB than Mark??

i think it is Taryn vs Mark, but I am interested to see if anyone argues for someone else. Honestly i think i will wait for Mark to finish before i say he has passed Taryn. Taryn had a better arm and a better 40 time. Mark has the intangible. that is the way i see it, but that is another thing someone can prove me wrong about. for the discussion of 2023, I will leave Mark the starter but I am not saying he has passed Taryn as the all time Jacks QB


Running Back

the day Josh Ranek played his last game, I told him that he ruined Jackrabbit football for me, because the chances were pretty good i would never see a better football player wearing a Jacks uniform and if i did they were going to be unbelievable.

well... I still have Josh in the discussion for who is the best Jackrabbit football player that i have ever seen. i cannot believe how many players we have had since then who are also in the conversation and, in my mind, two of the players in the discussion play the same position as Josh.

in my mind, i am calling it a tie between Isaiah, Zach, and Josh as the best RB in Jacks history. I wish there was some way we could play the season over with Zach as the RB and again with Josh. I would love to know what those two would do with this team around them!!!!!


those are my thoughts. i hope at least a couple people will throw an opinion out. or at least tell me why i am an idiot (about who would could take a starting spot away from the 2022 and 2023 guys or something related). i know there are plenty of other reasons but i dont need to see it here.


BTW the list competing with Ranek for best Jackrabbit ever- Zenner, Davis, Christian, Gronowski, Weineke, Rozeboom, not necessarily in any order and remember this is just my personal best ever!! I think someone who actually watched Rasmussen or Langer might say one of them, but i did not see them in a Jacks uniform

[LetsGoRabbits]

i will leave special teams open for now. i am sure i already wrote enough to piss off several people. the all time Kicker seems kinda obvious, but I think you can find reasons that Dustman stays the starter in 2023 or for someone other than Adam

punter
returner

i will probably join that discussion later if there is one

[jakejc795]

i will leave special teams open for now. i am sure i already wrote enough to piss off several people. the all time Kicker seems kinda obvious, but I think you can find reasons that Dustman stays the starter in 2023 or for someone other than Adam

punter
returner

i will probably join that discussion later if there is one

Domino played LB. The Rozeboom question is interesting, and I guess I'd be curious if folks' answers might change if we controlled for defensive scheme, as I think some may concede that the Jacks played more conservatively in prior decades. Speaking of coaches, I wonder if they'd try to get more of the LBs on the field together by having Bock play outside LB.

Mears was also a safety.

I'd put Sumner in the running at QB and Genant at OL. Also, not disputing Christion could run a faster 40, but are we sure Gronowski's that much slower?

Kicker gets tricky, because if you limit it to what the player did in college, I'm not sure AV would "start." Conversely, we're seeing the Jacks designate a separate special teams coach now, so players are getting resources that earlier ears were not.

I'd go with Large and Butler as returners.

[ringthebells]

Doug Miller has to be in there somewhere. That dude was a freak athlete. AV was a better punter than placekicker in college. If we are going based on entire career, then he def needs to be place kicker.

I never saw Jim Langer play, but he must have been pretty salty to be in the NFL hall of fame. How would Steve Heiden compare with Dallas and Tucker?

[LetsGoRabbits]

Doug Miller has to be in there somewhere. That dude was a freak athlete. AV was a better punter than placekicker in college. If we are going based on entire career, then he def needs to be place kicker.

I never saw Jim Langer play, but he must have been pretty salty to be in the NFL hall of fame. How would Steve Heiden compare with Dallas and Tucker?

Yes RTB!! WOW what a case of brainlock!!! I meant Doug Miller no idea why i said Doug Peterson. wow what a dunce!!! and I am 90ish % sure he was a LB, but outside LB and D End can be very interchangeable and obviously we have had some players play both outside LB and safety in the course of their career and i know Doug was a Freak who you just wanted on the field, regardless of position. pretty sure he was the best dunker on the MBB team the one year he played both football and basketball

and Jake for me i believe Rozeboom and Bock are both on the field. Not positive which one gets moved to the outside. the question, for me is who of all the others is on the field with them? I personally love Stahlbird and am leaning to him (not to say i dont love many others!!!! but the line is thin when you are talking all time. if i am just going by my favorites with no attempt to actually pick the best football player that is a different question)

Genant is one of the others on my list. obviously he played multiple spots on the line as a starter. others also did or possibly / probably could have. i really feel like Greenfield, McCormick, Langer, and Timmerman are in and it is a question of the 5th guy, but I also feel like I wont be at all surprised if someone can explain why someone else is a better choice than one of those 4.

is Genant better than Miller or Ohnasorge? or what other guy am i forgetting / never saw?

I said I can think of reasons AV is not the kicker. first among those he was not really AV until later. I said I did not want to simply consult the record book and i have not looked to this point, but I am sure AV is not on top of that list. for accomplishments during college, I think there is a chance that Syrovatka is my choice. I just think for most people this conversation will start and finish with AV and the reasons for that are obvious. HOW can he be the greatest NFL kicker and not be the greatest Jacks kicker?

Jake, i am guessing you remember, that i have written it a couple times before, JeRyan Butler is my all time favorite returner and one of my very all time favorite Jacks football players all together. He is still my returner. T Large is making his case, but that is gonna be a tough hill to climb. I also think Jadon was a pretty good returner and so was Cade Johnson. Both of them did it for a shorter time than Butler and I think maybe Johnson only returned kicks and not punts like Large, Janke, and Butler. I think returning punts is harder and I think Butler did it for 3 years. anyway, Butler is my guy, but I am interested to see what names others have.

[LetsGoRabbits]

I DO NOT want to insult anyone!!! and maybe everyone on this forum is totally aware of Wayne Rasmussen. I just feel like we are getting to the point where younger Jacks fans are not aware how incredible he was. it is, after all, 60 years since he graduated. in case there is anyone here unaware of Waynes accomplishments:

Wayne Rasmussen - South Dakota Sports Hall of Fame (sdshof.com)

I dont know if he takes someones spot as one of our starting safeties, but i think it is still VERY VERY POSSIBLE that he is the Greatest Jackrabbit athlete of all time. I dont mean to start a totally different question, but i am not sure what other athlete can really approach what he accomplished.

[jakejc795]

Yes RTB!! WOW what a case of brainlock!!! I meant Doug Miller no idea why i said Doug Peterson. wow what a dunce!!! and I am 90ish % sure he was a LB, but outside LB and D End can be very interchangeable and obviously we have had some players play both outside LB and safety in the course of their career and i know Doug was a Freak who you just wanted on the field, regardless of position. pretty sure he was the best dunker on the MBB team the one year he played both football and basketball

and Jake for me i believe Rozeboom and Bock are both on the field. Not positive which one gets moved to the outside. the question, for me is who of all the others is on the field with them? I personally love Stahlbird and am leaning to him (not to say i dont love many others!!!! but the line is thin when you are talking all time. if i am just going by my favorites with no attempt to actually pick the best football player that is a different question)

Genant is one of the others on my list. obviously he played multiple spots on the line as a starter. others also did or possibly / probably could have. i really feel like Greenfield, McCormick, Langer, and Timmerman are in and it is a question of the 5th guy, but I also feel like I wont be at all surprised if someone can explain why someone else is a better choice than one of those 4.

is Genant better than Miller or Ohnasorge? or what other guy am i forgetting / never saw?

I said I can think of reasons AV is not the kicker. first among those he was not really AV until later. I said I did not want to simply consult the record book and i have not looked to this point, but I am sure AV is not on top of that list. for accomplishments during college, I think there is a chance that Syrovatka is my choice. I just think for most people this conversation will start and finish with AV and the reasons for that are obvious. HOW can he be the greatest NFL kicker and not be the greatest Jacks kicker?

Jake, i am guessing you remember, that i have written it a couple times before, JeRyan Butler is my all time favorite returner and one of my very all time favorite Jacks football players all together. He is still my returner. T Large is making his case, but that is gonna be a tough hill to climb. I also think Jadon was a pretty good returner and so was Cade Johnson. Both of them did it for a shorter time than Butler and I think maybe Johnson only returned kicks and not punts like Large, Janke, and Butler. I think returning punts is harder and I think Butler did it for 3 years. anyway, Butler is my guy, but I am interested to see what names others have.

I suspect Stalbird spends more time at safety if we have the glut of LBs this counterfactual allows.

[jakejc795]

I DO NOT want to insult anyone!!! and maybe everyone on this forum is totally aware of Wayne Rasmussen. I just feel like we are getting to the point where younger Jacks fans are not aware how incredible he was. it is, after all, 60 years since he graduated. in case there is anyone here unaware of Waynes accomplishments:

Wayne Rasmussen - South Dakota Sports Hall of Fame (sdshof.com)

I dont know if he takes someones spot as one of our starting safeties, but i think it is still VERY VERY POSSIBLE that he is the Greatest Jackrabbit athlete of all time. I dont mean to start a totally different question, but i am not sure what other athlete can really approach what he accomplished.

It's been years since he's been mentioned in this forum, but passing the junction box on 8th and Medary with a painting of Cleveland Abbott reminds me that he has to be included.

[JackJD]

f

It's been years since he's been mentioned in this forum, but passing the junction box on 8th and Medary with a painting of Cleveland Abbott reminds me that he has to be included.

Jackjc's comment about Cleve Abbott is a good reminder that as time passes, fans just don't know about some of the outstanding athletes who played years ago. Cleve Abbott (Watertown High School 1912 grad) would still be a great athlete today in multiple sports. He was graduated from SDSU in 1916 after winning 14 letters.

When I was a kid, Palmer "Pete" Retzlaff was a star for the Eagles. He was one of the best Jackrabbit athletes of all time. SDSU won a national NAIA championship in track when Retzlaff and, if what I heard was correct, five of his teammates won the meet. Retzlaff could run, jump, throw the shot and disc. He was an outstanding fullback for the Jacks and was drafted by the Lions. The Lions sold his contract to the Eagles and they converted him to wide receiver.

In the early half of the 70s, Lynn Boden was a top offensive guard and a first-round draft pick by the Lions. He was in the pro's five seasons. I recall John Madden and Pat Sommerall calling a Lion'a game on TV and Madden said Boden was going to have to learn how to hide his "holding" better -- he had just been penalized for holding the second time early in a game. [Boden was a character. His Wikipedia page consists of a brief paragraph which ends with the following: "His favorite restaurant is Shucks."

Jake Weineke is one of my favorites from the modern era. He is now playing for the Saskachewan Rough Riders in the Canadian League. Jake's college class had a lot of very good wide receivers in the draft that year.

[LetsGoRabbits]

I suspect Stalbird spends more time at safety if we have the glut of LBs this counterfactual allows.

well i did not consider total position switch for this drill, but yes of course Stahlbird did play safety. If i can even remember the last few years correctly, one full year at safety, one year moving between safety and LB, and LB the last two years. I am curious who the experts would list as the top two safeties and if Stahlbird would be in that conversation? (dont ask me who the experts are? I will say Coach Stig. that would be an amazingly fun conversation. obviously he is very aware of Jacks history as well as a big part of it)

if you are moving Stahlbird, then my starting LBs are Rozeboom, Bock, and it is Backhaus or D. Miller. are you going to list yours? or just say we have a lot of them?))

[trueblue]

Domino played LB. The Rozeboom question is interesting, and I guess I'd be curious if folks' answers might change if we controlled for defensive scheme, as I think some may concede that the Jacks played more conservatively in prior decades. Speaking of coaches, I wonder if they'd try to get more of the LBs on the field together by having Bock play outside LB.

Mears was also a safety.

I'd put Sumner in the running at QB and Genant at OL. Also, not disputing Christion could run a faster 40, but are we sure Gronowski's that much slower?

Kicker gets tricky, because if you limit it to what the player did in college, I'm not sure AV would "start." Conversely, we're seeing the Jacks designate a separate special teams coach now, so players are getting resources that earlier ears were not.

I'd go with Large and Butler as returners.

Not sure if he beats out Large or Butler but I think Annensen (sp?) deserves mention here. He made me nervous with ones he wouldn't fair catch. My recall maybe not the greatest but just seems like he never let a kick hit the ground.

[jakejc795]

well i did not consider total position switch for this drill, but yes of course Stahlbird did play safety. If i can even remember the last few years correctly, one full year at safety, one year moving between safety and LB, and LB the last two years. I am curious who the experts would list as the top two safeties and if Stahlbird would be in that conversation? (dont ask me who the experts are? I will say Coach Stig. that would be an amazingly fun conversation. obviously he is very aware of Jacks history as well as a big part of it)

if you are moving Stahlbird, then my starting LBs are Rozeboom, Bock, and it is Backhaus or D. Miller. are you going to list yours? or just say we have a lot of them?))

If I had to list a starting three, I'd have to go with Rozeboom, Bock, and Backhaus.

My list also assumes that Stalbird is safety, but I think he's definitely demonstrated he is a great LB.

I should clarify that I wasn't arguing Stalbird should only be considered safety, merely that we'd want him on the field, and having him at safety gets him on the field more

This might be one area where stinkin' AI could provide at least an initial list for us to debate based on common metrics/stats (that's assuming AI knows Jacks aren't San Diego State)

[jakejc795]

Not sure if he beats out Large or Butler but I think Annensen (sp?) deserves mention here. He made me nervous with ones he wouldn't fair catch. My recall maybe not the greatest but just seems like he never let a kick hit the ground.

Think you mean Aanonson.

I forgot to mention that Cade Johnson would also be one of the kick returners for me.

[LetsGoRabbits]

If I had to list a starting three, I'd have to go with Rozeboom, Bock, and Backhaus.

My list also assumes that Stalbird is safety, but I think he's definitely demonstrated he is a great LB.

I should clarify that I wasn't arguing Stalbird should only be considered safety, merely that we'd want him on the field, and having him at safety gets him on the field more

This might be one area where stinkin' AI could provide at least an initial list for us to debate based on common metrics/stats (that's assuming AI knows Jacks aren't San Diego State)

totally understood. I agree we have a lot of LBs to consider and if he can also be one of the top safeties then moving him would make sense

you care to venture your thoughts on Ranek, Zenner, Davis? do you have Strong or someone else taking a spot in the top 3?

are you going to put Cade or someone else ahead of Jake or one of the Jankes?

i was also expecting you to add the name of a certain D End to the conversation. i hope someone will offer some intelligent discussion of the O line and D line guys. i think my thoughts were reasonable but not sure i am ready to call them intelligent.

i would say one O Line guy I wonder about- Coach Eidsness and I spoke multiple times about Paul Keizer. Eids was confident that Paul was going to play in the NFL and surprised that he did not. I cannot say I ever asked Eids later how he would have ranked Paul against the guys he had later after our move up, but he totally believed that Paul was an NFL lineman

[jakejc795]

totally understood. I agree we have a lot of LBs to consider and if he can also be one of the top safeties then moving him would make sense

you care to venture your thoughts on Ranek, Zenner, Davis? do you have Strong or someone else taking a spot in the top 3?

are you going to put Cade or someone else ahead of Jake or one of the Jankes?

i was also expecting you to add the name of a certain D End to the conversation. i hope someone will offer some intelligent discussion of the O line and D line guys. i think my thoughts were reasonable but not sure i am ready to call them intelligent.

i would say one O Line guy I wonder about- Coach Eidsness and I spoke multiple times about Paul Keizer. Eids was confident that Paul was going to play in the NFL and surprised that he did not. I cannot say I ever asked Eids later how he would have ranked Paul against the guys he had later after our move up, but he totally believed that Paul was an NFL lineman

I never saw Ranek play, but I think Strong definitely merits consideration. RB is complicated because one could argue that it's likely Zenner and Ranek would've been even more prolific with OLs of our current era.

I think Jason Schneider or Josh Davis merit consideration at WR, but I can't say I would "bench" anyone in your top 3. However, if Johnson spends a couple years as KR, then I could see moving Schneider up the list.