A bad move?

[SDSUFAN]

Re: A bad move?

i am glad that you have had the opportunity to follow the jacks as extensively as you have.  However, 91 rabbit as a new poster was wanting information and actually said in his post that his opinion was open to persuasion  so i don't think he was trying to cause a stir.  However, from the backlashing he took i can see how his attitude about the move and the people that support it would not improve.   ;D

I think to be persuasive on this issue for those that would agree with 91rabbit, you do have to have an instant UCLA, Nebraska or Ohio State.  That is not possible either.  I am willing to be patient with our adminstration and I think they have got their heads screwed on and are proceding accordingly.

Coach Stiglemeier asked me once back in 2000, just after the press conference announcing the Carr Report what I thought about  going D1.  With only the announcement and buzz statements, my honest feeling was as I told Coach, " Its like approaching a interesection with a flashing yellow light. You are to proceed with caution looking both ways."
This is how I have felt about the D1 movement and continue to do so today.  So far we havent run a red light yet and I dont think we will.  We probably have a series of intersections with flashing yellow lights.

In order to produce an instant UCLA, we would have to run a bunch of red lights, and risk  several collisons. This is not happening that I can see.

I can see the infatuation with the NCC.  On my old computer, I made several Trip Planner searches using Rand McNally software of all the then members of the NCC.  Brookings has the least miles of travel in completing a nine game round robin of the NCC. We all know who had the most, UNC.

So yes most people in the Brookings area could attend a bunch of out of town games.  The NCC is not the ESD nor should their be any connection, but some Brookings people have adapted that notion.  We know that the Great West is not that at all, but why not plan some travel and trips.  Its not a surprise trip, there is still a bunch of time to plan for this fall travel.  

I have a SDSU 1957 media guide and in it was picture and comments that the Jackrabbits made their first travel to a football game by air travel. They went to Tuscon Arizona and got trounced by U of Arizona 60 to zip and also flew to Bozeman and lost.  As a teenager in Brookings at the time, I dont recall anyone scoofing at this venture. Most thought Coach Ginn was very progressive for scheduling these games.

The point is we have traveled by air for a long time. Maybe recently we have not done as much air travel , but that doesnt make this modem of operation prohibitive.

[jackmd]

Re: A bad move?

Well, this should be fun.  I can't wait to see how many posts we get on this deal.

Lets try to keep this perspective in mind. This should be fun!! In no way, shape, or form did I think about SDSU on a daily basis until this Board came along. This Board came a long (at least partially and maybe entirely) as a result of the move to DI/DIAA. This move is primarily because of athletics but will have a university and state wide affect.

We need to welcome opinions from posters like 91rabbit even if they are not in direct agreement (or maybe completely in disagreement) as long as they demonstrate an open mind. Responding to a post by 91 is not the same as responding to a post by a "drive-by" coyote or maverick fan or a guy like Roger. 91 is now a registered Board member and we need to respect his views. Feel free to be opposed (I expect most of us to be) but don't feel intimated to agree with some of the points he brings up (travel will be an issue).

The best way to gain the confidence of those who have some doubt but will ultimately support the move is to provide thoughtful, evidence-based information which highlights the benefits of moving to DI while minimizing the risks. Occasionally it may be necessary to take a few "jabs" at the DII ranks that we are leaving behind but we must also respect the legacy of DII that will always exist at SDSU.

I don't like to think of the move up to DI as a new beginning or the move away from DII as an end. It is a continuum of the goals of a thriving and progressive land grant university in a state with yet unmet potential.

The move to DI, although it will be long and hard, will be one that is well worth it for SDSU students, athletes, alumni, and (I think) all S.D. residents. This is a crucial time and those of us who have the foresight to appreciate it (we are in the minority right now) have to stick together, raise money, continue to support the athletes and students, and gradually convince others to join us in what will be the best decision SDSU has ever made. (How that for pep talk, 91, and no I don't think its all a bunch of BS)

[WYOBISONMAN]

Re: A bad move?

Hell.....this board came about because of an NDSU alum setting it up....... Aren't you glad you guys have us Bison fans around.....

[SDSUFAN]

Re: A bad move?

Hell.....this board came about because of an NDSU alum setting it up.......  Aren't you glad you guys have us Bison fans around.....

Wyobison:

An unqualifed YES is the answer to your question. I have nothing but respect for Tony Crawford, who was posting to eGroups, when I first found the D2 football message boards. Tony should get an honorary award from SDSU for setting up this board.

[jackmd]

Re: A bad move?

Hell.....this board came about because of an NDSU alum setting it up.......  Aren't you glad you guys have us Bison fans around.....

I am well aware of this and I suppose it is possible that the board would have a similar face as it has today even if we hadn't moved to DI/DIAA, but I doubt it. Thanks Tony, 89, SDSUFAN and the other founding fathers.

[89rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

Greeting 91rabbit,

You feel that the move to D-I is a bad move, I would have to disagree with you. I will tell you why. They move is more then just what teams we will be playing in the future. It is more then just about athletics. It is being associated with peer institutions and being respected.

I have said it many times before and I will say it again. SDSU is a D-I institution trapped in a D-II body. Most of the NCC is the same way. 91, you may not have had the same chance as some of us to travel the country and see what most D-I and D-II schools look like. Trust me (or don't, but do some research) most D-II schools look nothing like the NCC schools. Most like more like Dakota State then South Dakota State.

I have a great example from my personal life. I just spent three days in Wichita, Kansas. A client of my company got into my car and noticed my SDSU sticker on the back window. He said "SDSU, never heard of them. How many kids go to school there, couple of thousand?"

I informed him that State has an enrollment over 10,000 and reminded me of Wichita State (D-I school and Member of the Missouri Valley Conf.). I could tell he was not convinced. I told him we were moving to D-I and looking to get into the Big Sky or Mid-Con. He said "Mid-Con ? Oral Roberts plays in that conference." he is from Tulsa. All of a sudden there was a new found respect. Because we were going to be playing D-I sports we must be a D-I University (aka big time school).

You may ask in this important, and I will answer YES. When SDSU grads are compeating for a job outside of our region that grad stands a better chance if the interviewer feels that SDSU is a major University and not some little rink dink college

We are not a rink dink college. We are every bit Wichita State's peer (NCAA D-I) We should be thought of that way.

http://www.wichita.edu/my/about_wsu.asp

We are every bit Northern Iowa's peer. (NCAA D-I/I-AA)

http://www.uni.edu/resources/about/

We are every bit Montana State's peer (NCAA D-I/I-AA)

http://www.montana.edu/misc/aboutmsu.php

We are much better then Upper Iowa (One of the New members of NCAA D-II)

http://www.uiu.edu/about/index.html

Newberry is not our peer (New member of NCAA D-II)

http://newberry.edu/about/default.asp


And I am talking from an academic stand point. We need people outside of our region to know who we are. South Dakota needs to have a University that people have heard of. This by itself is good enough for me. There are more reasons and they have been explored in other threads. 91, I encourge you to look for these threads, read them and see what you think.

91rabbit, welcome to the board. I think if you do some homework you will see that our move to D-I is something you will support. If not that is ok too. As long as you have the best interests of our school at heart no one can fault you. It is like being a Democrat or Republican, deep down they each have the best interests of the United States at heart, they just have different visions of the future.

Go State! ;D

[89rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

How about an open mind?  Your tone sounds a bit strident?  I just join this thing and am already accused of heresy.  Two quick reasons:  1. Money 2. The destruction of the venerable NCC.  We enjoyed going to Mankato in recent years to see the Jacks play.  Unfortunately I cannot frequent Cal-Davis.

91,

Wanted to answear you concerns. As far as money goes, SDSU is well on its way to its stated goal of $20 million dollars to help kick off our move to D-I.

http://diaafootball.com/cgi-bin/yabb...num=1082798698

As far as destruction of the NCC, they still exist and will exist without us. They will just be different. The NCC was going to be differnt no matter what SDSU did. NCAA D-II is changing and I believe that the schools of the NCC do not fit D-II anymore. I think you will see the scholarships and thus the quality of play go down in the not so distant future as the little schools out vote the big ones in D-II.

As far as not going to Mankato you are right that will come to an end. However we will still be playing our home games in Brookings (I make a 6 hrs. drive to see the Jacks play at home). We will also be playing schools like Minnesota (played them in baseball this year), Creighton (Omaha), Drake (Des Monies), Northern Iowa (former member of the NCC). There will still be chances for Northern Plains road trips. There will also be chances for SDSU fans in California, Georgia, Montana, Kansas, Missouri, and much more to follow the Jacks. D-I will be a good thing!

Go State! ;D

[89rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

91,

Lastly I would like to share something that SDSUFAN took the time to type into the board. It is a story written in the Brookings Register, but it was not posted on their web site. It is a great story and helps answer some of your questions.

SDSUFAN wrote:

Chuck Cecil Class of 1959 and M.S 1970 at SDSU and an administrative aid to the SDSU President, the Late Hilton M. Briggs, writes a weekly column for the Brookings Register. Unfortunately his column is not on the internet. I retype his column from my print version of the August 22, 2003 edition of The Brookings Register.

Chuck like myself is over 50 and has been a big proponent for the move to D1. This column is for the nay-sayers

STUBBLE MULCH- AUGUST 20, 2003
BY Chuck Cecil

A hotbed for FES recruiting

Recruiters for the Flat Earth Society are coming to Brookings. They believe our “someplace special” town has great potential for membership.

The FES decision was made after the society officials read comments by those who oppose the University’s decision to move to Division I in athletics.

These perpetual nay-sayers are just the kind of folks the society is looking for.

The Flat Earth Society, as some of you may recall from your history lesson, also kicked and screamed over approval of funds to finance the voyage in 1492 of the Pinta, the Maria and the Santa Maria.

In fact the FES members became so distraught that they called for the heads of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand, who financed the journey to the end of the world. Believe it or not there is some of that going around in Brookings relative to the current situation.

The Society, which remains comfortable with the world as it was 50 years ago when there were only 97 chemical compounds on the element chart has also been against acceptance of every one of the last eight chemicals since they were discovered and added to the chart. The new elements were discovered by the way in a Division I school laboratories.

FES was also against highway maps.

Last Friday morning, South Dakotans were the only citizens of any state that did not have a Division I school. SDSU was the only Land Grant University not a Division I member. By 10:15 a.m. that morning, we joined the rest of society.

Interestingly, just a few hours after the Division I announcement was made, two SDSU basketball greats, Austin Hansen of Valley Springs, and Sherri Brende of Baltic, were married in Baltic.

With the wedding of these two shooting guards, No 10 and No 22, I look for a pretty good three point expert to be playing Division One basketball for the Jackrabbits in about twenty or thirty years.

The future of South Dakota State and students not yet born is, what this thing is really all about.

We all need to remember that the university was here and survived changes long before any of us were admiring the skills of the likes of Hansen and Brende on the Frost Arena Basketball court.

I am quite certain the university that belongs to all the South Dakotans , not just Brookingsites, will survive other changes coming down the pike, too. I guarantee you that SDSU will be here long after we temporary residents are no longer season ticket holders.

So for all the students who in the next century will come to SDSU, let’s make our state’s entry into Division I a successful one.

Oh by the way, they’re some Division II news. Among the 10 new members of the athletic division SDSU just left were four schools from Puerto Rico, plus Goldey-Beacom College, Green Mountain College, Holy Family College, North Greenville College and the University of Sciences in Philadelphia.

Fortunately, despite FES objections, we now have detailed road maps so we’ll all be able to eventually locate just where these obscure Division II members are located.

I’m pretty sure the last six are all within the confines of America, which fortunately Christopher Columbus discovered despite efforts to the contrary.

[91rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

My thanks to 89rabbit and jackrabbit1979. SDSUFAN, please see their comments directed to me for examples of civilized dialogue.

I would love to travel to all of the new exotic locales to see the Jacks play, but, unfortunately, I have more pressing obligations at home. (Namely four children who have all seen the Jacks play at least once.) Hence my comment (apparently not well received by jackmd) regarding keeping SDSU athletics in perspective. It was not intended as a shot against any board member.

89rabbit had the best post in that he logically and calmly explained many good reasons for the move. Another excellent example was the recent letter to the editor in South Dakota Magazine by Keith Jensen (albeit in a very snotty tone). Nevertheless, he made good sense. But taking a nasty track will win him fewer converts.

As to the national recognition mentioned by 89, I agree. When my wife was in grad school at Michigan, her SDSU education gave her tremendous advantages not enjoyed by her colleagues educated at larger universities. Evangelizing the fence sitters and naysayers using the academic angle (as 89 did) is the best approach. What I seem to be interpreting from many of the posts is that athletics are the driving issues in the move. I have little time for the American obsession with sports. This may explain my previous comment about keeping athletics in perspective.

So, do not dismiss my comments out of hand. I entered this dialogue with an open mind willing to look at the facts and was treated as a heretic. I am here to listen and learn. You who know the facts: engage and enlighten!

[SDSUFAN]

Re: A bad move?

91 rabbit:

I really am not an oger, but have been fan since 1953 and I graduated in 1965.  With a growing family I can see you do have obligations that makes travel prohibitive.  Those four youngsters will be adults before you know it and you will maybe be like me able to travel and enjoy doing so. It was not my intent to rub it in.

Maybe the reason I reacted to your intitial question  "A bad Move?" was that since this issue first appeared, I found my-self, Public Enemy one in my circle of friends in Brookings, because I favored it.  I listened to all their negatives over and over.  At the same time, I have had  constant dialogue with Fred Oien, Keith Mehlum, Nancy Nieber, V,J Smith and Kieth Jensen on this issue. I asked questions and got answers.  Sometimes answers may not have been what I wanted to hear, but they were answered.

I got as informed explanation as possible for making this move.  The SDSU staff was generally speaking from where the University wanted to go into the future. This move is not about 2004, but rather 2024.  At that point in time, I think we can appreciate what we are doing now.

The NCC started to break up with the loss of Morningside. Then UNC and now NDSU AND SDSU.  Four different reasons for leaving the NCC.  Maybe the only two schools that seemed to have a common mission is NDSU and SDSU.  We may struggle with the Bison in football, but othewise our institutions have much in common.

President Miller tried at one of the NCC annual meetings to get the NCC to move up in mass, but the hockey schools would not buy into it.  So its not a desertation thing, its a big disagreement about vision for the future within the NCC.

The things happening to D2 may force SDSU to cut back rather than grow in athletics.  Dr Miller and Dr Oien both have indicated that D2 may no longer be a good fit.

 I think athletics are not playtime and should not be put on the chopping block each time there is fiscal downsize.  

Most of the NCAA rules are adopted by the D2 membership at their annual convention held simultamously as that for D1A, D1AA and D3.  Right now among the football members the voting power to retain the scholarship level of 36 is not present. Some D2 conferences fund any where from 15 to 30 scholarships.  The new members of D2 have virtually no programs when compared to NDSU and SDSU or USD. These members are certainly not going to vote to increase scholarship funding levels or other measures to increase athletic budgets.  The new members want to go in the opposite direction.

 I think this was something that Fred Oien recognized first since he attended the yearly conventions as far back as 1990 when he became AD. Fred is very up to date on all that happens in the NCAA D2.  So this was not an ego trip for him, like some in Brookings think.  If there is one thing I really resent is to hear him being called a liar about the D1 move.  His family matters are his to resolve and I dont think they have a bearing on our move to D1.

The choice of D1AA is a choice to move forward rather than maintain status quo that would eventually take our athletic program backward.

Athletics play a role in tying the university together with the local community AND THE ENTIRE STATE. Athletic events also give connection to grads that have have come and went from the campus.  At that same time those who are fortunate to get to participate in varisty athletics learn the value of competition in life.

As far as an image, I did read what 89 rabbit posted and what he experienced this past week with his client in Witchta.  What happend to 89 rabbit has happened to me time and time again since I ofen wear SDSU apparell and have had stickers on my car too.

I have not lived in Brookings or South Dakota since 1965 when I left for the US Navy.  Even in Nebraska, you would be surprised how little they know about South Dakota. They seem to know dams on the Missouri and where Lake Enemy Swin and Big Stone are located, but  beyond that  what ever you tell them is new information. Its amazing how few Nebraska people know where Brookings is located.  

SDSU alums as I posted live  elsewhere than South Dakota, and if they have a chance to take in a Jacks game if in their area, they will and I mentioned Western Washington U in a prior post.  How many WWU fans travelled to Brookings. Not many, but WWU had a rowdy bunch of players on the bench and made noise during their first half rallies.  Thanks to the SDSU Alumni Association and their records, everyone gets a postcard or letter before the game to let them know about the games and sometimes they will organize a social gathering.  This function will play a bigger role in moving up to D1AA and will provide a connection for those out of state alums.

Yes the move to D1 is with out a doubt in my mind a very good move.  Twenty years from now when your four youngsters are adults, you may have to see a scapler to get tickets to a game in Frost.

[JBNJBQ]

Re: A bad move?

It will, without a doubt, be a great move for SDSU and the state of South Dakota. I see it as all positive for everyone involved, except the current student athletes.

The current athletes are the only ones that will have to pay a price for the move. They, unfortunately, got caught in the middle of the move. Only the incoming freshman class knew for sure that they would be in transition and would not be able to compete for a National Championship. Everyone else believed that SDSU would not go D-I without a conference which everyone knew would be hard to find. Years away.

Many of those athletes are D-I caliber and could have attended D-I schools but chose SDSU for various good reasons (and there are many of them). Now through no fault of their own, they have to make decisions all over again. Do I stay or do I go!

Most will stay! I hope everyone will recognize the loyalty and sacrifices that those athletes will make and support their efforts wholeheartedly as they give it everything they have without criticizing their lack of size or speed or ability. They are true Jackrabbits! We shouild make extra effort to show them how much we appreciate them.

Some may decide not to stay. I hope that we will be big enough to recognize their contributions to our program and wish them the best as they continue to battle our old foes.

I look forward to next year! I believe SDSU will do very well against D-I competition. Years from now people will wonder if SDSU ever played USD and some old timers will tell of the times when we actually did compete against them in a place they used to call the Dakota Dome but is now used to store grain. Ah the memories!

Go Jacks!

[89rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

JBNJBQ,

Don't fall into the FES trap of National Championship talk. The incoming freshmen and the Soph. class all knew, for sure, that we were moving to D-I. Loney, Wenig, Green and Beran would not be at SDSU if we were not moving up to D-I. I think athletes, like the rest of us, want to compete at the highest level possible. If all our athletes cared about was compeating for a National Championship they probably would have gone somewhere else. Not a slam on SDSU, just the truth. If competing and winning a National Championship was all that athletes cared about why not "sandbag" it and play for the NAIA D-II Championship at Sioux Falls University. It would be like taking your A League softball team and entering it at the D League level. Sure you would have victories, but what would you really win? :-/

SDSU is not some sports consumed athlete factory that has forgotten its academic mission. Once we move to D-I, we still will not be a sports consumed athlete factory that has forgotten its academic mission. That is not why kids come to SDSU. So saying that the athletes are losing out because they don't have a chance to play for a National Championship, just dosen't ring true to me.

JBNJBQ, please don't take this as an attack. I find you to be an articulate poster, who's reasoning is sound. I just have heard the "No National Championship" argument one too many times. It really makes me laugh when folks from USD try and use it. When was the last time they even sniffed a National Championship? Still kids go to USD, why you might ask ??? Because they want a chance to compete. I think that is what kids really want. Even during our probationary period we will offer our kids that chance and we will offer them that chance at a higher level. I will now get off my soap box.

Go State! ;D

[89rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

My thanks to 89rabbit and jackrabbit1979.  SDSUFAN, please see their comments directed to me for examples of civilized dialogue.  

I would love to travel to all of the new exotic locales to see the Jacks play, but, unfortunately, I have more pressing obligations at home. (Namely four children who have all seen the Jacks play at least once.) Hence my comment (apparently not well received by jackmd) regarding keeping SDSU athletics in perspective.  It was not intended as a shot against any board member.

89rabbit had the best post in that he logically and calmly explained many good reasons for the move.  Another excellent example was the recent letter to the editor in South Dakota Magazine by Keith Jensen (albeit in a very snotty tone).  Nevertheless, he made good sense.  But taking a nasty track will win him fewer converts.

As to the national recognition mentioned by 89, I agree.  When my wife was in grad school at Michigan, her SDSU education gave her tremendous advantages not enjoyed by her colleagues educated at larger universities.  Evangelizing the fence sitters and naysayers using the academic angle (as 89 did) is the best approach.  What I seem to be interpreting from many of the posts is that athletics are the driving issues in the move.  I have little time for the American obsession with sports.  This may explain my previous comment about keeping athletics in perspective.

So, do not dismiss my comments out of hand.  I entered this dialogue with an open mind willing to look at the facts and was treated as a heretic.  I am here to listen and learn.  You who know the facts: engage and enlighten!

91,

If you have other concerns please let me know. I will do my best to address them. You also may want to take a look at the FAQ section of the SDSU web site. I think you may find it helpful.


http://www3.sdstate.edu/Athletics/Di...ions/Index.cfm


Keep posting and Go State! ;D

[JBNJBQ]

Re: A bad move?

JBNJBQ,

JBNJBQ, please don't take this as an attack.

Go State!  ;D

Not to worry "89". I do not attack Jacks fans, or Jacks players, only outsiders and only when they get boring or go overboard.

Please do not miss my main point:

The Junior and Senior student athletes got caught in the middle of a transition, (whether you believe it is a good thing or a bad thing is immaterial).

Let's remember to appreciate all of our student athletes and find additional ways to show our support of all of our teams, the next two years especially. Everyone will be giving, all they have. We can not ask for more than that!



Go Jacks!

[89rabbit]

Re: A bad move?

Fair enough, I agree 100%

Go State! ;D