Outdoor v Indoor football

[JackJD]

There have been some posts in various threads about the great time had by those in attendance at the playoff games. As SDSU football continues to succeed and grow in popularity, its pretty easy to imagine the Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium being a lot of fun for late season football (like the old 'Met in Minneapolis, Lambeau Field and other northern stadiums) [Watch the Colts and Bills play today in the snow?]

Lambeau Field's attendance record of 79,704 was set in the dead of winter: January 11, 2015.

This season's home games, with perhaps one exception, were held in very nice weather. The exception, one could argue, was Hobo Day -- but I think that had we not stumbled against UNI, people would remember that day as a good one too...the fans I saw all had rain gear.

So, a USD friend was trying to give me a little grief about sitting in the Dykhouse stadium Saturday. Naturally, I asked him to tell me about his experience on Saturday watching HIS team playing football in the FCS semi-finals. Of course, the next attempted insult was a tease about the crowd size. I had to concede I was disappointed in the crowd although I pointed out it was a lot of fun sitting among the 5583 loud, foot-stomping hard-core fans. And I didn't get an answer for the amount of tickets sales for the game at his school (surely he has enough sense to only tease me because his school, in comparison, had better attendance for its semi-final game. Or not.) (He also tends to give me a little crap about our regular-season attendance when our average is substantially in excess of his school's stadium capacity -- apparently hasn't thought about that one either. Right now, I'm predicting that we're going to be surprised on how quickly the date arrives when people start questioning why the stadium wasn't made larger to begin with -- my friend will be with the questioners.)

So, I did a little checking on just how many FBS and FCS schools play in indoor facilities. In my search, I also looked for schools that upgraded their stadiums from indoor to outdoor. Here's the information I dug up with some quick Wikipedia searches. When's the last time a DI school decided to build an indoor football stadium? It looks like the year was 2001 when Grand Forks put up the Alerus Center, home of UND football. So, the following may miss a school but I think it is accurate:

Only two FBS programs play in indoor stadiums:

Idaho -- Kibbie Dome (multi-use: football; basketball etc.); football capacity: 16,000 (record 19,878); opened 1975.
Syracuse -- Carrier Dome (multi-use: football; basketball etc.); football capacity: 49,262; opened 1980.

Only six FCS programs play in indoor stadiums (listed in order of opening year):

Idaho State -- Holt Arena (multi-use: football, basketball etc.); football capacity: 12,000 (record: 13,985); opened 1970 (and is oldest indoor stadium still in use).
Northern Iowa -- UNI-Dome (multi-purpose, football, track, can host basketball etc.); football capacity: 16,324; opened 1976.
Northern Arizona -- Walkup Skydome (multi-purpose, football and basketball); football capacity: 10,000 but with portable bleachers, can be increased to 11,230; opened 1977.
South Dakota -- DakotaDome (multi-purpose, football, track, can host basketball etc.); football capacity: 10,000; opened 1979.
North Dakota State -- Fargodome (City-owned, multi use); football capacity: 19,000 (record 19,108); opened December 1992.
North Dakota -- Alerus Center (City-owned, multi-use football, basketball, convention center etc.); football capacity: 12,283; opened 2001.

When schools move out of indoor stadiums, they move into outdoor stadiums -- here are examples:

Minnesota -- had played in the Metrodome but since 2009, plays in the TCF Bank Stadium.
Tulane -- had played in the Merdedes-Benz Superdome but since 2014 plays in the outdoor Yulman Stadium.
Georgia State -- started football in 2010; moved to D1 FBS starting with 2013 season -- played in Georgia Dome through 2016; Starting 2017, plays at Georgia State Stadium which is the old (but renovated) Atlanta Braves baseball stadium -- more renovations follow the 2017 season after which the stadium will be renamed Parker F. Petit Field.

[Jackedforlife]

Re: Outdoor football advantages

Excellent breakdown JackJD, we are very fortunate to have the facilities we have in the area we are in...attendance will get there, keep winning and the fanbase will grow. There will always be the fair weather people that won't make these games but hopefully they are countered by the diehards that only make it to 2-3 regular season games because they live 5 or more hours away...

[Justwin]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

There have been some posts in various threads about the great time had by those in attendance at the playoff games. As SDSU football continues to succeed and grow in popularity, its pretty easy to imagine the Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium being a lot of fun for late season football (like the old 'Met in Minneapolis, Lambeau Field and other northern stadiums) [Watch the Colts and Bills play today in the snow?]

Lambeau Field's attendance record of 79,704 was set in the dead of winter: January 11, 2015.

This season's home games, with perhaps one exception, were held in very nice weather. The exception, one could argue, was Hobo Day -- but I think that had we not stumbled against UNI, people would remember that day as a good one too...the fans I saw all had rain gear.

So, a USD friend was trying to give me a little grief about sitting in the Dykhouse stadium Saturday. Naturally, I asked him to tell me about his experience on Saturday watching HIS team playing football in the FCS semi-finals. Of course, the next attempted insult was a tease about the crowd size. I had to concede I was disappointed in the crowd although I pointed out it was a lot of fun sitting among the 5583 loud, foot-stomping hard-core fans. And I didn't get an answer for the amount of tickets sales for the game at his school (surely he has enough sense to only tease me because his school, in comparison, had better attendance for its semi-final game. Or not.) (He also tends to give me a little crap about our regular-season attendance when our average is substantially in excess of his school's stadium capacity -- apparently hasn't thought about that one either. Right now, I'm predicting that we're going to be surprised on how quickly the date arrives when people start questioning why the stadium wasn't made larger to begin with -- my friend will be with the questioners.)

So, I did a little checking on just how many FBS and FCS schools play in indoor facilities. In my search, I also looked for schools that upgraded their stadiums from indoor to outdoor. Here's the information I dug up with some quick Wikipedia searches. When's the last time a DI school decided to build an indoor football stadium? It looks like the year was 2001 when Grand Forks put up the Alerus Center, home of UND football. So, the following may miss a school but I think it is accurate:

Only two FBS programs play in indoor stadiums:

Idaho -- Kibbie Dome (multi-use: football; basketball etc.); football capacity: 16,000 (record 19,878); opened 1975.
Syracuse -- Carrier Dome (multi-use: football; basketball etc.); football capacity: 49,262; opened 1980.

Only six FCS programs play in indoor stadiums (listed in order of opening year):

Idaho State -- Holt Arena (multi-use: football, basketball etc.); football capacity: 12,000 (record: 13,985); opened 1970 (and is oldest indoor stadium still in use).
Northern Iowa -- UNI-Dome (multi-purpose, football, track, can host basketball etc.); football capacity: 16,324; opened 1976.
Northern Arizona -- Walkup Skydome (multi-purpose, football and basketball); football capacity: 10,000 but with portable bleachers, can be increased to 11,230; opened 1977.
South Dakota -- DakotaDome (multi-purpose, football, track, can host basketball etc.); football capacity: 10,000; opened 1979.
North Dakota State -- Fargodome (City-owned, multi use); football capacity: 19,000 (record 19,108); opened December 1992.
North Dakota -- Alerus Center (City-owned, multi-use football, basketball, convention center etc.); football capacity: 12,283; opened 2001.

When schools move out of indoor stadiums, they move into outdoor stadiums -- here are examples:

Minnesota -- had played in the Metrodome but since 2009, plays in the TCF Bank Stadium.
Tulane -- had played in the Merdedes-Benz Superdome but since 2014 plays in the outdoor Yulman Stadium.
Georgia State -- started football in 2010; moved to D1 FBS starting with 2013 season -- played in Georgia Dome through 2016; Starting 2017, plays at Georgia State Stadium which is the old (but renovated) Atlanta Braves baseball stadium -- more renovations follow the 2017 season after which the stadium will be renamed Parker F. Petit Field.

You do not think our attendance would increase if we had an indoor stadium ?

[jakejc795]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

You do not think our attendance would increase if we had an indoor stadium ?

It seems likely that ticket prices would've increased as well, so there'd be contravening influences.

[Justwin]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

It seems likely that ticket prices would've increased as well, so there'd be contravening influences.

You are correct. The main advantage of outdoor football is the cost to build a stadium. I have no clue what the price tag of a dome stadium would cost but I bet there would be sticker shock!

[jakejc795]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

You are correct. The main advantage of outdoor football is the cost to build a stadium. I have no clue what the price tag of a dome stadium would cost but I bet there would be sticker shock!

Replacing Swiftel Center with a dome operated on a cooperative basis with Brookings might have been one way to swing that to defray some of the costs.

[Jackedforlife]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

Dome would've run upwards of $115 million and that would've been at 15,000 capacity. There isn't nearly enough need for the city of Brookings to cost share that for concert lineups that do well but won't hit 15K. Nevermind the cost to maintain a dome. This stadium is expandable, God willing the fan base grows. You're locked in with a dome...keep buying stock in Hot Hands and praying that the deep December home field post season runs continue. I know of at least 3 recruits that said playing outdoors in the cold was another deciding factor in coming here. If you want to play on Sunday's you better have experience playing in the elements.

[JackJD]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

You do not think our attendance would increase if we had an indoor stadium ?

My view is an indoor stadium likely would have resulted in greater attendance for both playoff games but certainly no where near what it would take to have justified building an indoor facility with a capacity of 10000 or so. As long as I'm giving opinions: I am convinced that this year's attendance figures for the regular season would have been about the same if we had an indoor facility rather than the Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium (but I do not think we could have afforded to construct an indoor stadium that would have held the crowd for the NDSU game).

Taking a longer-term view than just this season: I don't think we could have constructed a stadium for the cost it would have taken to accommodate this year's average attendance. Give the Jacks a few years and watch what happens to attendance. We now have the capacity to take care of some growth in the fan base. And when it becomes a problem that fans cannot get seats, the facility is set up for relatively easy expansion.

Montana and, to a little lesser extent, Montana State, serve as examples of northern, outdoor stadiums that have tremendous crowd support in what sometimes can be cold and snowy weather. I'm convinced that if NDSU had a 25,000 seat OUTDOOR stadium, it would sell out the same as Montana's Washington Grizzly Stadium. Sure, they'd lose a few fans who would not sit outdoors in cold weather but I think there would be many more who cannot easily get tickets to the FargoDome and would take the opportunity to buy a ticket to the outdoor stadium. (I remember a game or two in near blizzard conditions at NDSU's Dakota Field, the foundation for today's great fan support for the Bison.)Added: I agree completely with JackedForLife's post immediately preceding this post. I think the Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium is very well thought out and is the best overall solution to our fans' needs.

Added later still: I've been to every SDSU home game, except one, since we went D1. The one game I missed was an early-season, nice-weather game but I had a family wedding to attend. The "bad weather" ones -- maybe three or four over those years? -- were probably the most fun (yes, even that goofy pillow-fight game in the snow; and, probably the worst weather game was the one Ryan Berry set the record for passing TDs -- I'm from Watertown and knew Ryan well so that was a particularly fun performance to watch).

[bigticket1]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

My view is an indoor stadium likely would have resulted in greater attendance for both playoff games but certainly no where near what it would take to have justified building an indoor facility with a capacity of 10000 or so. Taking a longer-term view than just this season: I don't think we could have constructed a stadium for the cost it would have taken to accommodate this year's average attendance. Give the Jacks a few years and watch what happens to attendance. We now have the capacity to take care of some growth in the fan base. And when it becomes a problem that fans cannot get seats, the facility is set up for relatively easy expansion.

Montana, to a little lesser extent, Montana State, serve as examples of northern, outdoor stadiums that have tremendous crowd support in what some think is terrible weather. I'm convinced that if NDSU had a 25,000 seat OUTDOOR stadium, it would sell out the same as Montana's Washington Grizzly Stadium. Sure, they'd lose a few fans but those who want to get to a game but have difficulty getting a ticket would more than make up for those he decide to not go due to weather. (I remember a game or two in Dakota Field, the foundation for today's great fan support for the Bison.)Added: I agree completely with JackedForLife's post immediately preceding this post. I think the Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium is very well thought out and is the best overall solution to our fans' needs.

Added later still: I've been to every SDSU home game, except one, since we went D1. The "bad weather" ones -- maybe three or four over those years? -- were probably the most fun (yes, even that goofy pillow-fight game in the snow; and, probably the worst weather game was the one Ryan Berry set the record for passing TDs -- I'm from Watertown and knew Ryan well so that was a particularly fun performance to watch).

The other big disadvantage( besides cost ) of going the dome route is that the Jacks would very likely have had to find a different place to play for at least one season if the Dome was going to be built in the same footprint of the current stadium. Most domes take between a year or two of construction - the Vikings had to play two seasons in the Gopher's stadium while their stadium was being built. It's amazing that the Jacks were able to build a completely new stadium in two phases without having to play any games off-campus because of construction.

[ringthebells]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

I don't know about anybody else, but I LOVE the new stadium. CAS was awful and embarrassing. DJD is amazing. No more port-a-potties, no more trailers for concession on the east side, no more torn up pasture for a field. The west side is impressive looking, the scoreboard kicks ass, I really like the bowl and the backs on the bleachers. I haven't been privy to seeing the inside of the club seating, I'm sure it is great, but this poor east side dweller loves what was built. I hate indoor stadiums. The echo in the Dakotadump gives me a headache. It is either that or the constant humming noise in there. If we win two more games this season and keep putting a great product on the field the late season crowds will grow. We are watching the beginning of something special.

[Theee Catrabbit]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

So, a USD friend was trying to give me a little grief about sitting in the Dykhouse stadium Saturday. Naturally, I asked him to tell me about his experience on Saturday watching HIS team playing football in the FCS semi-finals. Of course, the next attempted insult was a tease about the crowd size. I had to concede I was disappointed in the crowd although I pointed out it was a lot of fun sitting among the 5583 loud, foot-stomping hard-core fans. And I didn't get an answer for the amount of tickets sales for the game at his school (surely he has enough sense to only tease me because his school, in comparison, had better attendance for its semi-final game. Or not.) (He also tends to give me a little crap about our regular-season attendance when our average is substantially in excess of his school's stadium capacity -- apparently hasn't thought about that one either. Right now, I'm predicting that we're going to be surprised on how quickly the date arrives when people start questioning why the stadium wasn't made larger to begin with -- my friend will be with the questioners.)

The obvious question is why do you have USD fans as friends.

I'm not sure what brain trust decided to start the debate in all these threads about indoor or outdoor stadiums, probably the same folks who want to bitch about this terrible job our coaching staff has done for the past 10 to 20 years or a bad pretzel they had at a concession stand. The saying that comes to mind is "Some people will bitch if they are hung with a new rope". People need to get the **** over it.

[THE PRIDE IS BACK!!!]

Re: Outdoor football advantages

In general, I prefer stadiums over domes. I see way more advantages in SDSU building the stadium versus a dome. There's always the possibility of expansion, you can make a stadium look awesome while a dome will just look like a dome (NFL domes don't count), and weather can give home teams an advantage. I joked with some people today I might need to move to Buffalo and become a Bills fan because "that's football weather." I'm from the North and momma didn't raise no wimp. Cold weather games are going to be my favorite (this is coming from a guy who has to repeatedly put a cold piece of metal to his face every few minutes because the Jacks keep scoring), and it looks like Jackrabbit fans better get used to them. The fans will come as the program continues to improve (yep, they're gonna get better) and the fans realize the live experience is way better than some tv screen at home or a bar. Domes are fine for the NFL, but college football is meant to be played outside (during a blizzard and in a foot of snow.)

P.S. Bands sound stupid in domes (and quiet.)

[jakejc795]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

I don't know about anybody else, but I LOVE the new stadium. CAS was awful and embarrassing. DJD is amazing. No more port-a-potties, no more trailers for concession on the east side, no more torn up pasture for a field. The west side is impressive looking, the scoreboard kicks ass, I really like the bowl and the backs on the bleachers. I haven't been privy to seeing the inside of the club seating, I'm sure it is great, but this poor east side dweller loves what was built. I hate indoor stadiums. The echo in the Dakotadump gives me a headache. It is either that or the constant humming noise in there. If we win two more games this season and keep putting a great product on the field the late season crowds will grow. We are watching the beginning of something special.

I wonder if they could build a magnificent Jack the mascot statue on the southwest "student" entrance to block the sun for these late afternoon/early evening winter games. They could have it facing the Campanile and beckoning fans toward the stadium (only half kidding). They could even have similar statues for the "Pride," "Barnyard Cadets," ROTC, and the kid who dresses up as a carrot standing shoulder to shoulder, because there were a few times that it was difficult to follow second half game action occurring south of midfield, even with sunglasses -- a relatively minor inconvenience though, and mostly my attempt to get a Jack statue on campus.

Fortunately, they did preserve the port-a-pottie access in the east side parking lot for the traditionalists (and Bison fans).

I also thought it would have been great to preserve the heritage by naming the stadium Coughlin Alumni Stadium at Dykhouse Field or something, but of course I understand the reasons for the current title. Nevertheless, I agree that the stadium is awesome.

[Jackedforlife]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

After watching replay of the NH game I wonder if the sun isn't why Jake dropped that TD pass right after his spiderman grab. It hits his hands right as he enters the sun...

Hopefully in 10 years or so we'll be talking expansion and that corner can have seats that join the student section eliminating that blindness...

[Nidaros]

Re: Outdoor v Indoor football

I think we still would have CAS if not for the engineering study that numbered day left for its usage. I applaud all our efforts in replacing CAS with DJD. The biggest anti-dome sentiment comes from our careful observation of USD and the Dakota Dome. It like many big projects in S.D. underfunded. Look north, we have a great Town and Gown project called the FargoDome. Then a few miles north, the Alerus Center thanks to rebuilding from horrible 1997 flood. That leaves SDSU literally out in the cold. It looks like that is our future like it or not. We have no Warren Buffets.